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jwdefoor
Copper Member
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2008 : 13:29:19
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I stumbled across a guitar trick that made me pause.
Note, as you read this, understand that I have not shared all of the necessary details to try this at home. So don't!
The trick calls for a guitar, a SPECIFICALLY NAMED pedal, and an amp. I think the trick also specified the guitar have passive pickups. I know for certain it specified the pedal be "BATTERY POWERED" for that is why I paused.
No string gets plucked. The trick is executed by the guitarist playing around with the guitar's volume and tone knobs, while the guitar is plugged into the pedal's OUTPUT jack and the amp into the INPUT jack. Could not the guitarist also get executed along with the trick?
I may be overreacting and speaking from ignorance -- hence, my question. On account of how the pedal's input jack is wired as an on/off switch and/or the pedal's positive grounding, does this trick not set up a potential electric shock hazard? While the passive pickups and using only a battery powered pedal may afford some insulation and protection -- if the guitarist forgot and connected the pedal to the AC adapter or if a "biker chain" touched just the right things, would not sparks fly?
I am new to all of this, so please give me your take and educate me on what you think the dangers are, if any.
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Edited by - Dr. Bob on 09/02/2008 14:24:08 |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 14:23:21
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Hi jwdefoor
You fail to mention what this actual trick is supposed to do!
And by amp plugged into the input of the Pedal,
do you actually mean the speaker out of the amp? 
PM the whole unedited text of this article or where you found it.
I will not post it to the forum, unless a few of us tech types deem it safe.
If it's deemed to be dangerous, we'll take a vote on deleting the thread, and depending what Bossarea says as well.
And I have moved this into "Off Topic"
Regards Dr. Bob
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 14:36:36
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I wouldn't recommend plugging the output of an amp into a pedal.... apart from anything else the amp especially if it's a valve/tube amp will probably fry.... i know david gilmour from the floyd got his seagull effect on echoes by putting the guitar into the output of a wah pedal and the input into the front end of his hiwatt.... the only other effect i know of that goes in between the output and the speaker of an amp is some of the talkbox or golden throat effects like peter frampton or joe walshes 'rocky mountain way' effect but these are specially designed to do this... i think maybe if your worried about publishing it in the forum the good doctors suggestion of a PM might be the way to go...... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 09/02/2008 14:39:07 |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 14:48:34
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Hi Guys
I'd like to lock off this thread until I get a PM reply from jwdefoor.
Please post your opinions about locking this thread off for now?
I will monitor it until I finally go to bed.
And I will email Bossarea as well,
unfortunately at present, it's 1:30am in London.
Bossarea may elect to unlock it later.
With concern, Regards Dr. Bob |
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jwdefoor
Copper Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 15:13:05
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Specifics that I can recall.
It was in a softback book at my local guitar store, titled something about guitar tricks to try. In it was how to make your guitar sound like a ringing bell, an organ, a harp, and all kinds of other stuff. Some tricks involved pedals, some not.
The specific trick I referenced described it as a way to make unusual sounds. As best I remember verbatim "The guitar does not even have to have strings on it."
It specified using a "battery powered WAH pedal." No specifics beyond that. I exagerated in my post out of safety concerns. It said no pedal settings would be touched during the trick.
You plug the guitar's "out cable" directly into the pedal's output jack, and the cable running from the pedal's input jack is plugged into the amp's input jack. My distinct impression was that you take a normal WAH pedal setup, and at the pedal, swap the in and out cables around.
Then it said the trick was performed by turning your volume and tone knobs in different combinations to get these different sounds. It was not any more technical than that.
After reading that trick, I thumbed through the book and none of the few other tricks I read in detail, specified using a "battery powered pedal". Nor did the book explain why that was an important distinction unique to this trick. My eye notices differences like that, so it got my attention.
Thanks guys & gals. I have told you all I know. If there is a real risk here, I will soon go back and get the book's info and pass it along to you.
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 15:50:10
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Hi jwdefoor
Your first post stated:
"amp into the INPUT jack:
quote:
No string gets plucked. The trick is executed by the guitarist playing around with the guitar's volume and tone knobs, while the guitar is plugged into the pedal's OUTPUT jack and the amp into the INPUT jack. Could not the guitarist also get executed along with the trick?
This one comment set off my alarm bells.
Your vague explanation, was dangerous.
As musicians & players, we have to be constantly vigilant of our equipment & how it is set up.
There are many true stories of players being injured & even killed by poor or missing Earth/Ground connections, leakage currents, & faulty mains wiring coming into contact with signal wiring.
The output stages of amplifiers can & do swing through Dangerous AC Volts.
Tube amps will fry the output transformers if run under no load.
I hope you can appreciate my concerns, over the initial explanation in your first post.
In hindsight, this is probably similar to what Franzoni wrote in his post.
Regards Dr. Bob |
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jwdefoor
Copper Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 16:21:36
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Dr. Bob -- I only wrote my original post because I share your concerns 100%, but am unsure about my technical knowhow to judge. When I read this trick, I was thinking this could kill somebody, so I asked my question here.
This wasn't my trick nor do I care to give it a try, so I'm friend not foe. So what you and/or Bossforum do in reaction to this is fine with me. I was just trying to alert this community that dangerous stuff was being published, in case you wanted to do something about it.
Any ulterior motive of mine, if any, was to check whether I am beginning to understand this stuff well enough to spot something others overlooked.
Thanks to everyone.
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DarrinPA
Silver Member
USA
221 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 17:22:50
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I messed up and accidently plug in my chords into my pedals backwards. I even done that with a distortion pedal in the effects loop of a solid state amp and nothings ever gone wrong. I'm not an electrician or anything, but I'm still alive which should mean something. Plus, I think he might just be thinking of the seagull sound Franzoni is refering to.
If there is some sort of danger I'd like to know. I don't think locking this thread will help anybody find out because they couldn't post a reply saying not to. |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 17:43:02
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Hi DarrinPA
There was some confusion about the wording in the original post.
I read it as plugging the speaker into the Pedal, it sort of read that way.
Which should never be done.
But jwdefoor posted his question as a concern for the possible dangers involved.
It was me who read it incorrectly.
But I guess, I was also concerned about anyone here hurting themselves.
jwdefoor method is safe, as it only in involves low level signals.
The signals from the send & return on an amp are also low level signals, typically in the rage of a few hundred millivolts, so you shouldn't be concerned about damaging anything or hurting yourself.
But point in mind, the Line6 DL4 delay pedal inputs, can be damaged by the levels in the send-return loop of an amp.
This wasn't documented anywhere in the early manual for the DL4 & a lot of people ended up with damaged inputs.
Are you reading this & shaking your head Laurie,
yeah they never took into account, that someone might actually use the effects loop on their amp.
So I guess I owe jwdefoor an apology as well.
Regards Dr. Bob
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 17:52:57
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Hey g'day guys!
Couple of things I'd never do...
1) use an amp without an earthed/grounded plug
2) plug anything other than a speaker or power brake into the output of an amp
Anything in the low signal level domain - amp inputs, pedals, multi FX, etc - is fair game (safe) - as long as your cheque-book can stand it when she go "boom" 
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jwdefoor
Copper Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 17:55:19
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All's well that ends well.
Dr. Bob, no apologies expected nor necessary. Thanks for taking time to educate me.
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 17:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by jwdefoor
All's well that ends well.
Dr. Bob, no apologies expected nor necessary. Thanks for taking time to educate me.
Hi jwdefoor
When your next in OZ, I'll buy you a  , red, or coffee.
And we can have a laugh over it.
Regards Dr. Bob |
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Dingus
Silver Member
USA
472 Posts |
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jwdefoor
Copper Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 19:01:20
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| Yes, that's it. Bingo! |
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bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 19:24:38
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I don't see any reason to lock the thread but you've already sorted that part of the issue anyway. 
Anyone know which pedal the book is talking about? I wouldn't expect to get anything out of most pedals connected this way.
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Dingus
Silver Member
USA
472 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 19:42:50
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| The pedal is any Wah pedal, check that link I put up above, you can see a scan of the actual page from the book with that "Search Inside" function. |
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Isn't this dangerous?
