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verivorax
Platinum Member
Canada
1185 Posts |
 Posted - 11/11/2009 : 14:18:25
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I don't think any digital modelling will ever really replace the magical interaction between the pickups and V1 in a tube amp. There will always be modelling, but it will rise and fall (like Line6 did - as their pro market went back to tubes) behind the dulcet whining of the valves. 
But maybe I'm foolish.. I collect little colourful boxes and shoot film in vintage cameras.  I will always prefer these things' mojo over some hyped new technology..  |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 14:46:33
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| I use a mix of tube/analogue and digital stuff,my heart is in tubes and analogue but i like digital for some things as well,i find the programmability of extra patches for delay times with the Podxt pro in the rack very handy also for recording i've got good results with the pod rather than miking an amp and this version is 5 years old now.. .... the Fractal stuff that Phostenix was talking about is very good check out some of clips on youtube...but it's still very expensive...i agree with phostenix that this stuff eventully comes down in price... |
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phostenix
Gold Member
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 15:39:47
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Fractal Axe Standard is $1500US, the Ultra model is $2000. A Mesa Mark V is around $2500, a Hughes & Kettner Triamp is $3500 at Musician's Friend. People pay $1500 for a good tube amp all the time. I don't think the cost is that different than other high end gear.
There's a saying in the tech world that people will make a change (computer, cell phone, etc.) when the benefits of the new technology outweigh the pain of the change. This is what I think we're going to see in the next 5 years. I think modeling will get close enough that for the vast majority of players, the benefits will outweigh the "cost" of the change(s).
There will always be people who want vintage analog gear, just like there will always be people who want tubes for hifi amps or listen to music on vinyl or shoot photos on film. But, they will be the niche market, not the main market. Boss is too big to chase niche markets, in my mind.
I have a vision of what the future amp/effect user interface will look like. I wish I had a way to draw it up & post it. |
Edited by - phostenix on 11/11/2009 15:41:13 |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 16:03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by phostenix
Fractal Axe Standard is $1500US, the Ultra model is $2000. A Mesa Mark V is around $2500, a Hughes & Kettner Triamp is $3500 at Musician's Friend. People pay $1500 for a good tube amp all the time. I don't think the cost is that different than other high end gear.
Hi phostenix & Guys
Just while we are talking about the cost of various bits of gear.
WARNING WARNING DANGER WILL ROBINSON
And you better take a really firm seat for this.
The current Oz RRP (recommended retail price)
for the Mesa Mark V is a staggering $6495au.
I told you to take a seat.
A Fender 65 Deluxe RI is around $2295au to $2500au.
Laurie tells me that the Deluxe RI sells for around $695.00Can.
Don't even ask about a PRS or a Gibson LP. 
And our dollar is at a current all time high of 93+ cents.
and has been typically floating above 90+ cents for many many months now.
Just my $6495.00 (2 cents) worth.
Regards Dr. Bob 
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 16:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Bob
Laurie tells me that the Deluxe RI sells for around $695.00Can.
That's the used price if you can get a deal... I checked the price at the local music store and they can get one from another branch for about $750 right now.
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 16:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by phostenix
This is what I think we're going to see in the next 5 years. I think modeling will get close enough that for the vast majority of players, the benefits will outweigh the "cost" of the change(s).
G'day! I'd have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I think one of the key elements for guitarists is that, generally, simple, straightforward, and toneful will always win the day. I think it is much more likely that we will continue to see a tube amp with a couple of pedals (with straightforward controls) in front of it, rather than a modelling solution with many parameters to learn. Music (guitar in particular) remains, I believe, an emotional pursuit and excessive technology just seems to get in the way?
Tag.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 16:27:22
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| Yep we have been here before with the cost of stuff especially the cost and availibility between the U.S and the rest of the world...something that is $1500 in the states normally ends up £2000 in the UK probably another 15/20% dearer by the time it gets to Ireland......i agree Boss isn't a niche manufacturer but the original gist of the topic was how can boss remain at the forefront of the market..? and a suggestion i and some others made was maybe going down the Maxon route with a jap reissue of some classic stomps...all the tech palyer using big rigs like Gilmour/Edge/Andy Summers etc ..use a mix of both in their rigs,the one thing they all have in common is the final product comes out of a tube amp..i've also noticed a trend on big stages of the backline making a re-appearence rather than being off to one side and the monitors carrying the stage for the musicians...i don't think that monitoring for live stuff with gear like the fractal or any other amp sim is quite there yet so your back to putting it through some sort of backline like a regular amp for live use....i think this will be big more so in the studio,especially home or small studios where space and sound levels could be a problem....anyway i thought that the software stuff like Guitar Rig by Native Instruments was taking over from the hardware for all those sort of simulators....?... |
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phostenix
Gold Member
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
I think one of the key elements for guitarists is that, generally, simple, straightforward, and toneful will always win the day.
That's where my vision of the future comes in. I'm sure I'm not the first to realize it, so expect to see it soon - Multi-Touch screen displays as the "faceplate" of the amp. It can be customized to as simple or as complex as wanted. You could "flip" through pix of stompboxes and amps like you do albums on an iPhone. Once you choose the effect or amp, you get a picture of the faceplate of that actual device. The display could have pictures of knobs that you "grab" with 2 fingers and turn like a real knob.
Because of licensing issues, Fender (for example) wouldn't be able to have exact pictures of another brand's products, but that's where the customizing comes in. Not only would people start to hack the interface & create their own faceplates, but they could start adding or changing features to the sims. Imagine a basic stomp or amp image with the usual simple controls and then an Advanced button that brings up more controls. If you like simple, you never bother with the Advanced button. If you're a twiddler, you'll go for more (The Fractal has things like a bias setting for the power tubes on the amp!). Line6 already has modeling software available for people to create their own effects, so this is where I see the future for modders.
I agree that there will always be a certain percentage of people that want the real thing, but once modeling gets close enough for the masses, I think the whole game changes. There are lots of benefits for manufacturers to having soft displays that are dynamic & even the modding crowd can get involved. There's obviously a steeper learning curve than swapping out resistors, but the payoff of your own customized amp - sound AND look - will be very compelling.
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Edited by - phostenix on 11/11/2009 19:07:56 |
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phostenix
Gold Member
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
the original gist of the topic was how can boss remain at the forefront of the market..?
I don't think they will do that by going back to the analog boxes.
Here's my thinking:
1. No matter what they do, it will never satisfy the vintage crowd. The black magic & mojo mythology cannot be overcome. No matter what they build, where they build it, or how they build it, it will never be as good as the old stuff in the minds of those who love the old stuff.
2. A lot of those old parts just aren't made anymore. Boss is not likely to go to the trouble of having components custom made for them to some old spec. Again, the very people they would be trying to reach most likely would still say it didn't have the mojo of the old stuff.
3. The market isn't big enough to justify the costs. They can let the boutique makers serve that market and focus on improving their new technologies.
4. They need to improve their modeling sims. Look at the grief they get on bossgtcentral.com about the "cocked-wah syndrome" and other issues. They need to keep up with the Jones' before they lose a big chunk of the effects market. Look at all the amps now with effects built in. Boss needs to make sure there's still a reason to buy their add-on product (or get serious in the amp market). |
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chrissydamage
Silver Member
United Kingdom
180 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:58:56
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The current trend for a lot of firms these days seems to be for shrinking stuff smaller at the expense of quality-
Back in the late 70's if you wanted a bit of chorus you'd need a rucksack to carry your CE-1 about and it probably would have taken Boss many man-hours and considerable cost to construct- nowadays you can buy a box of tricks the same size that does every effect under the sun- it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the original effects, but the average player these days would probably rather have the new one, just cos it does more and looks nice and shiny and cool and thats the market that the product is intended for- plus Boss probably also have a big machine out in Taiwan that spits out these things at a phenomenal rate at very little cost to them......
The music industry loves this 'micro' technology too, back in the 80's we had the invention of DAT/ADAT recorders, which was an awesome discovery at the time. That soon developed into a CD for the record buying public, then Minidisc, then Ipod etc etc getting progressively worse quality but smaller in size each revision, and that seems to be what the public want and what the public buys- hardly anyone buys cds anymore really, its all mp3 or whatever........
I think this trend in a lot of consumer electronics will no doubt continue, stuff that looks cooler, does more, sounds worse, costs less to make and is smaller in size.........unfortunately thats probably the way we are headed.... |
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Witloofboer
Gold Member
Belgium
513 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:59:45
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I don't know what Boss should do, but they make effect for a reasonable price and that's what makes them successful. If they continue doing this, they'll remain successful.
I think that the major reason why some people still want the 'vintage' stuff, is that the gear used on the recordings they grew up with is 'vintage'. We just like the old sounds, made with amplifiers from that era & with guitars from that era.
For example, Steve Cropper used a 60's Telecaster and a 60's Fender Havard amp. His sound was/is great, but he didn't use any vintage stuff. He just used the stuff available around that time. The Beatles got sponsored by Vox. They gave them the contemporary models, not the ones from the 40's.
I think we should focus on sound, not on age or on brand. Dr. Bob currently uses a Behringer amp, but he still has a great sound. The way you play is far more important than your gear. (There was a video with Joe Satriani on youtube a few years ago in which he played on cheap gear, but he still sounded great! |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 20:00:38
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I guess it depends on what the actual market looks like. I don't know what the percentage split is in the consumer base... I *think* these are the potential buying groups:
1) Professsional musicians (sole income from playing music)
2) Part-time musicians (augmented income from gigging)
3) Part-time musicians (doing it for fun)
4) Venue/group equipment owners (houses of worship, etc.)
5) Professional people who used to be in a band when they were younger and now have income but no time. Basement "full of gear".
6) Mature people just getting started on the instrument (with disposible income)
7) Younger people just getting started on the instrument (with no disposible income)
8) Collectors
Any others? Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the biggest sector (from a $ spent perspective)? I'm going to say #5.
If we understand this... we can maybe guess where Boss is heading (and make some realistic suggestions about where they should head). |
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Witloofboer
Gold Member
Belgium
513 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 20:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by chrissydamage
Back in the late 70's if you wanted a bit of chorus you'd need a rucksack to carry your CE-1 about and it probably would have taken Boss many man-hours and considerable cost to construct- nowadays you can buy a box of tricks the same size that does every effect under the sun- it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the original effects, but the average player these days would probably rather have the new one, just cos it does more and looks nice and shiny and cool and thats the market that the product is intended for- plus Boss probably also have a big machine out in Taiwan that spits out these things at a phenomenal rate at very little cost to them......
+1 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 01:20:56
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| Realistically i think they with develop on from COSM to whatever new digital technology they develop to "keep up with the jones'"..as phostenix said....i wasn't suggesting that they would ever go back to fulltime analogue stuff,more of a sideline with a limited 'vintage reissue' i'm savvy enough to understand that it wouldn't be cost effective for boss to go back to fulltime analogue production plus the point about components is a valid one,remember Fender in the 50's was all about cost base thats why strats and teles are made the way they are plus the amps cabinets were made out of pitch pine not for tone but because it was cheap,easy to get and easy to work as a timber,Marshall 4 x 12's are that size because Jim Marshall could make one out of one sheet of plywood...all big manufacturers think about the profit margin and material costs,thats good business..... on the mojo side..Maxon seem to be doing alright with it's vintage reissues getting good reports and reviews,albeit they never went digital AFAIK and operate on a smaller scale than Boss... nah i think Boss will go down the Digital road running and Phostenix's vision of the future with touch screens will probably come to pass at some stage.....i'll probably just get a smaller pedalboard and a blues jr to save my back and stock up on 12ax7's and EL34/84's for my stuff.... i really can't see simulators,who ever their made by working for semi pro and part timers who do their own sound unless small PA systems like the new BOSE system get a lot more powerful and easier to use and interface with so everyone can hear themselves,most bands have a very basic monitoring system with maybe at the most 2 seperate mixes in the monitors,one for the drummer and a seperate one for the singer...i know i don't like the sound of my guitar coming back at me through the monitors unless it's the acoustic and any hint of the guitar,bass and drums in a singers monitor seems to piss them off no end......this will be for top session pro's playing big stages when a backing an artist where an amp isn't viable.. say some like whitney houston of celine dion..where it all about the vocals and the musicians are in the background... they even cage the drummer in perspex on these gigs to keep the volume down...some say all drummers should be caged and only let out for gigs....... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 11/12/2009 01:25:29 |
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eboe
Copper Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 03:20:15
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| I think, and this harks back to the "reissue of classic pedals" topic, that Boss/Roland are losing out on a huge market of people who pay big money on the secondary market for stuff like Dimension C / Digital Dimension / Slow Gear / CE-2 / CE-3 / Analog CE-5 etc - and what is happening is Behringer has reverse engineered those pedals, built them cheaper - yes, in plastic housing with surface mount boards, but with equivalent sound most say, and some of the pedals like the UC-100 and possibly the UC-200 Chorus pedals, and the CC-300 (Dimension C knockoff) all use actual Analog chips, and you can get them on ebay for about $30, and they are dead silent from what I have heard. Sure they put the power plugs on the side, but I have a OneSpot, and the daisy chain for the OneSpot has right-angle connectors anyway. I'm like inches away from picking up one of those CC-300s to add to my Digital Dimension to hear what sort of world of whack tones that would give my chorus-loving self... and reissuing these pedals would be simple as pie for them, even if they were Taiwan made, still with Analog chips, it's not like they make any money off second-hand sales... So Boss, LISTEN UP. Remake this stuff and cut Behringer's sales of pedal clones of pedals you don't make anymore off at the KNEES. |
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Boss on the market place
