| Author |
 Topic  |
|
nosajwp
Copper Member
USA
24 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2006 : 03:23:55
|
Has anyone run into issues with the low impedance output of the pedals (when your guitar output is normally high impedance) into other pedals or your amp? Could this be a cause for tone loss, or is the tone loss mainly from the internal circuitry of certain pedals?
|
Edited by - nosajwp on 08/24/2006 04:13:39 |
 |
|
|
FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 07:24:47
|
i use a ls2 as a looper to keep my mod/delay pedals out of the signal chain until i need them and as a bypass to my tu12. i noticed it brings a a little bit of treble when i use the loop function but at gigging and rehearsal volumes you wouldn't even notice,i used to use the direct out on my dd3 to feed my tuner the trick is to only put the jack plug halfway into the direct out on the dd3 but the downside is you don't have silent tuning,i read an article about volume pedals and tuner outs and the guy reckoned they were a bad thing because it splits the signal from your guitar and this could be a problem if you use a lot of true bypass pedals maybe as boss are buffered it doesn't matter as much..... but my biggest problem is my crybaby,i'm having big problems at the moment... i'm getting serious intermittent volume drops in my signal chain and i think its the culprit..anyone else have the same problem...?? |
|
|
|
lazzrath
Bronze Member
Canada
103 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 10:44:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by StratoSphere
i dont find any pedals to suck tone. i think some people have tone and volume confused.
Honestly, not trying to insult, but you must not play at a loud enough volume to notice. Some are really bad, and yes, it's TONE they're sucking. Not all pedals, and granted, Boss pedals have some of the nicest sounding buffers on the market, but tone does get lost in some. This can be proven scientifically, but more importantly, this is apparent aurally at performance volumes.
I also read an article somewhere about the tuner out on volume pedals - it makes sense. |
|
|
|
bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 12:37:07
|
In many ways I agree with StratoSphere here.
If I connect a lot of pedals in a row I hear some treble loss but I've been unable to find some pedals that are worse than others. Unless I have at least 6-7 pedals the suck is neglible. If I have that many the EH-2 does a good job of restoring that high end again. |
|
|
|
nosajwp
Copper Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 18:47:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by bossarea
In many ways I agree with StratoSphere here.
If I connect a lot of pedals in a row I hear some treble loss but I've been unable to find some pedals that are worse than others. Unless I have at least 6-7 pedals the suck is neglible. If I have that many the EH-2 does a good job of restoring that high end again.
I've heard similar reports like this. If this is the case, would that be 6-7 Boss pedals in a row, or 6-7 total. In other words, say I had 4 Boss pedals between my guitar and amp, and 4 in the effects loop. Do you think this would cause the same loss as if I had 8 pedals between my guitar and amp, or would splitting up the group help some? |
|
|
|
Austen
Bronze Member
50 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 02:14:12
|
Guys,
This isn't speculative, it's a well known and understood effect.
Assuming you have "your" home sound and you mostly play one or two guitars....The more you play, the more you're ear will be "in" and the more you'll notice it. This is particularly true for crybabies, they are notorious for tone sucking and the first mod most people do is true bypass them.
All Boss pedals are buffered/not true bypass but honestly, the system they use is about the best compromize between intelligent buffering and silent (fet based) switching. It will have a cumlative effect though and will degrade your tone if seriesed up too much,
Plug your guitar into your amp direct..play enjoy...now plug into a chain of four or five Boss pedals in the "off" position....tone will be different.
Does this offend your ear? If not, ignore carry on.
If yes... consider purchasing a true bypass looper or an LS-2. At least with the LS-2 your signal will only be hitting that and/or whatever you have active in the loops.
Depends on your guitar/pickups/cable/amp/speakers whether this is a problem for you or not.
|
|
|
|
Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 09:33:45
|
One of the biggest tone-suckers is a long (more then 3-4 meters) bad quality guitar cable between guitar and first pedal. The curled ones are, generally, the worst. I�ve heard that Hendrix preferred curled cables as to tame the high end sound.
The cables capacitance is the �bad� thing here.
Great cable doesn�t necessarily mean high cost.
You can build pretty good ones out of good quality microphone cable with decent plugs.
Buffered pedals, like Boss, does that, cable-wise, the length of the cables following a buffered pedal have a much lesser bad effect than before the pedal. But don�t use more cable than necessary�..
|
|
|
|
lightburst
Silver Member
Germany
158 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 10:01:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by nosajwp
Has anyone run into issues with the low impedance output of the pedals (when your guitar output is normally high impedance) into other pedals or your amp? Could this be a cause for tone loss...?
No, this is the reason for tone saving!
If you compare two fx chains with 5-6 units, one with non true bypass pedals like Boss, Ibanez or so with another one with true bypass the later will suck more tone in bypass mode due to the high impedance of your guitar and the long signal path. If you have several pedals in your signal chain it�s allways a good idea to use a buffered pedal in the first (or after a Wah in the second) position to get a low impedance signal to save your tone 
The rule of thumb is: low impedance output into high impedance input.
And remember if you use a passive volume pedal like the Ernie Ball connected to the fx chain AND the tuner the input impedance will get lower because it�s a parallel connection! |
|
|
|
boss freak
Gold Member
USA
663 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 11:05:24
|
This may sound a bit naieve, but my solution has always simply been to dial in the tone I like on the amp with my pedal board in the signal path as it would be in a normal gig situation. I'm never going to take the pedal board out of my live rig, so rather than bemoan the fact that the pedals are changing the "unaffected" tone of my guitar, I just go for it and live with what I get out of my rig. If there's a loss in treble, I simply add more treble in he amp's EQ section. Simple enough. I play rock music, so I'm not going to be too concerned with audiophile-esque things like this.
I don't mean to offend anyone with these comments, and I realize that it's not everyone here that's playing rock or heavy music or whatever you want to call it, but seriously I think that this could be considered a classic example of "ignorance is bliss". If there are some forum members here that say they don't notice any tone loss, there's not much point in getting scientific and pointing out that they are "wrong" when stating what their ears perceive. Rock n roll ain't science... and you can quote me on that.  |
|
|
|
Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 11:41:30
|
Boss freak; That was a very good point!!!!!! |
|
|
|
Austen
Bronze Member
50 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 12:53:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by lightburst
if you have several pedals in your signal chain it�s allways a good idea to use a buffered pedal in the first (or after a Wah in the second) position to get a low impedance signal to save your tone
The rule of thumb is: low impedance output into high impedance input.
Exactly right.
But also in concurrence with Bossarea, this is a situation you should only act on if it is a problem!
Not just to "be correct" as you are opening a little can of worms re impedence, as Lightburst has pointed out.
Boss struck a good, usable compromise with their buffers, still, too many pedals + wrong signal chain = results may not please!
It depends on what YOU hear, what you can live with...
|
|
|
|
stinkfoot
Silver Member
Sweden
181 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 13:07:05
|
Life would be easy if there were a specific pedal or two that "sucks tone", while the rest were safe. In reality, it's a lot more complicated. Each pedal is unique, as is each rig and each player. So a certain pedal that sucks tone in one person's rig may well sound just fine in another's. The TU-2 and PSM-5 are two I too have heard more complaints than average about, but both of them work just fine for lots of people. It's really a lottery - for instance, while almost all of the DD series pedals that pass through my hands has sounded just fine, a couple really messed with the bypassed tone. Seemingly identical pedals can sound very different indeed.
The best (and really only) way to get a tuner out of the signal chain is to use a properly wired A/B box. The DOD will work fine, if you jumper the resistor inside to give the switch a proper connection to ground. There are also a plethora of small businesses on the web where you can buy one, and if you want to make your own it's not too hard (I believe Fulltone has a diagram in the tech section of his site). I'd definitely recommend against using the "tuner out" of a volume pedal - unless there's a buffered (Boss or similar) pedal in front of it, the VP/tuner combo will potentially steal far more tone than running the guitar straight through the tuner.
/Andreas |
Edited by - stinkfoot on 08/25/2006 13:08:05 |
|
|
|
jack
Platinum Member
USA
1418 Posts |
|
|
Chucks Tone Garage
Copper Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 03:49:52
|
quote:
However, you would need to make sure you got a quality AB-Y that does not suck tone. Or if you are already using an AB-Y, here is an AB-Y with a dedicated tuner output:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chucks-A-B-Box-withTuner-Output-NEW_W0QQitemZ270002266081QQihZ017QQcategoryZ22669QQcmdZViewItem
quote:
Nice box, too bad its battery powered!
I am the builder for that pedal and I wanted to point out that the battery is only for the LEDs. The AB switching is completely passive. Also there is a 9V DC jack on the pedal that is compatable with the Boss PSA 120!
Chuck |
|
|
|
diggum12
Silver Member
USA
282 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 16:53:36
|
Hey Chuck! Welcome to the forum. Thanks for that, I thought you had a 9V jack on that thing.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Which Boss pedals are guilty of sucking tone?
