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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2009 : 10:45:06
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Since I'm asking about other non Boss items, I thought I'd ask about one of these as well.
Anyone had any experience with one of these? Any Blackheart lovers/haters here care to share their opinions?
It seems to get a pretty good write up from what I can find.
I am sort of looking at options, and trying to decide whether to try an Orange Tiny Terror Combo, or to team the Bleakheart up with my Epi Valve Junior in a two amp setup.
And a totally newbie question, does two 5watt amps equal 10watts of output? Or am I trying to defy the laws of physics? |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 11:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by DasBeef
Since I'm asking about other non Boss items, I thought I'd ask about one of these as well.
Anyone had any experience with one of these? Any Blackheart lovers/haters here care to share their opinions?
It seems to get a pretty good write up from what I can find.
I am sort of looking at options, and trying to decide whether to try an Orange Tiny Terror Combo, or to team the Bleakheart up with my Epi Valve Junior in a two amp setup.
And a totally newbie question, does two 5watt amps equal 10watts of output? Or am I trying to defy the laws of physics?
Well you will have 2 x 5W stereo, and I suppose that equal 10W.
I have played with two 5 watters for some time and I sure like both the output and the dimension of it (having Boss �stereo� pedals last in the chain).
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 11:47:17
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Had to make a coffee and sit down before i write this..... ...
first off..i've heard a lot of good things about the blackheart stuff,especially the small combos and heads DeFrag has one so he might give a more in depth review for you....i think a lot of the perception about valve amps being louder than solid state and the whole wattage thing is a minefield for people..watts are watts as far as i can find out off people who know more than me.... i think a lot of the perception that valve amps are louder is because a valves rating is only a guideline on it's effeciency, according to some research i've read on the net,some marshall 100 watt heads when tested for their output where putting out way above their rating..120+ watts... no wonder Hendrix etc...used to blow speakers regularly.... also i think the efficency of the speaker plays a big part in level of output and overall tone of the amp..i A/Bed celestion vs Emeniece speakers with my marshall and musicman amps and it makes a big difference to the sound....
As for the two amp setup... as you probably know i'm still using one at the moment,i have two very different amps,running different types of valves with different speakers...i use the marshall to provide the grunt and bottom end and the Musicman is like a Fender Twin so it provides the top end sparkle and bite to the sound...AFAIK both the epi and the blackheart run EL84's in the output section but then most small combos do..might be no harm to try before you buy to see if the amps compliment each other,another option depending on your budget is to look around for a small combo from the 70's like my little Selmer etc... for a el84 based amp it is quite mellow sounding ,not too trebley like some amps i've heard....it really depends what your epi jr sounds like on it's own,if its a bright sounding amp i would suggest a slightly darker one to go with it.... i find mixing two amps very rewarding but i would suggest if your going to try it,to use a pedal with stereo outs to split the signal or some sort of active splitter to keep a balanced signal to both amps...
i think the Blackheart and thr Epi jr run on emenience speakers...? so another not too pricey option is swap a speaker in one for a Celestion etc... Emenience to my mind and ear are a more US type of sound and the Celestion more British/Classic rock..Don't mind everything i say DasBeef i'm a tone/gear geek and spend waaay too much time on the 'net reading up on stuff and experimenting with my gear..... .......
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 11:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Goran
Well you will have 2 x 5W stereo, and I suppose that equal 10W.
I have played with two 5 watters for some time and I sure like both the output and the dimension of it (having Boss �stereo� pedals last in the chain).
[/quote]
Don't think it works like that bro'.... but i'm sure Laurie or Dr Bob could put us all square on the science bit...+1 Stereo pedals at the end..a stereo chorus like the CH-1 can sound great.... |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 12:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
quote:
Originally posted by Goran
Well you will have 2 x 5W stereo, and I suppose that equal 10W.
I have played with two 5 watters for some time and I sure like both the output and the dimension of it (having Boss �stereo� pedals last in the chain).
quote:
Don't think it works like that bro'.... but i'm sure Laurie or Dr Bob could put us all square on the science bit...+1 Stereo pedals at the end..a stereo chorus like the CH-1 can sound great....
You could be right Franzoni, we have to wait for Dr Bob & Laurie
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Edited by - Goran on 09/03/2009 12:21:42 |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 16:35:00
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...or DeFrag.
Short Answer: 5 watts + 5 watts = 10 watts total output.
But it doesn't equal twice the loudness as a single 5 watt output.
Long Answer:
The more drivers you have pushing air at a given power level, indeed nets the addition of the wattages. For instance, in your question you have two 5-watt amps. Running simultaneously, you've got 10 watts of audio. However, this doesn't mean you have twice the loudness of a single 5-watt amp. Perceived "loudness" varies logarithmically with output power. A doubling of power will only yield about 3db which is barely noticeable. It is accurate to express perceived loudness in the logarithmic decibel (dB) scale; a change of 1dB, which corresponds to a 25.9% change in power level, is considered to be the smallest change in sound power level perceivable by the average human ear under idealized test conditions. You really need an increase by about 10db to perceive audio as being twice as loud.
Speaker sensitivity is very important as well. Many speakers have a sensitivity of 84dB for 1 watt at 1 meter, but better speakers can have a figure of 90dB or greater, especially some large-coned woofers. An 84dB speaker would require a 400-watt amplifier to produce the same audio energy as a 90dB speaker being driven by a 100-watt amplifier. This doesn't mean a bigger speaker can produce more sound with less overall power. Just that a larger speaker can typically handle more initial power & so requires less amplification to achieve the same high level of output. This means using a speaker with a higher dB rating can be more advantageous as many amplifiers inevitably produce a certain amount of distortion for a given level of amplification. So, more speaker + less amp = same "loudness" + less distortion so highly sensitive speakers can produce extreme sound levels with minimal power. A better measure of system power is therefore a plot of maximum loudness before clipping, in dB SPL (sound pressure level), at the listening position intended, over the audible frequency spectrum of the material. A good system should be capable of generating higher sound levels below 100Hz before clipping, as the human ear is less sensitive to low frequencies, as indicated by equal-loudness contours.
A speaker's power rating tells how much AC power can be dissipated in the speaker's voice coil without damaging the speaker. Speaker ratings are often exaggerated so one of the best ways to rate a speaker is to give the rating as the continuous RMS wattage the speaker is capable of handling. The term "sine power" is used in the specification & measurement of audio power. A meaningful & reliable measure of the maximum power output of an audio amplifier - or the power handling of a loudspeaker - is continuous average sine wave power. The peak power of a sine wave of RMS value X is SQRT(2)*X; conversely, the RMS value of a sine wave of peak X is (1/SQRT(2))*X. For a resistive load, the average power is the product of the RMS current & RMS voltage. In common use, the terms "RMS power" or "watts RMS" are erroneously used to describe average power. A 100 "watt RMS" amplifier can produce a sine-wave of 100 watt average into its load. With music, the total actual power would be less. With a square-wave, it would be more. Harmonic distortion increases with power output; the maximum continuous power output of an amplifier is always stated at a given percentage of distortion, say 1% THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise) at 1kHz. Considerably more power can be delivered if distortion is allowed to increase; some manufacturers quote maximum power at a higher distortion, like 10%, making their equipment appear more powerful than if measured at an acceptable distortion level.
If a speaker is capable of handling 150 watts of peak power, it is usually rated to handle 75 watts RMS. If a speaker is rated to handle 150 watts, it may mean that it will take only very short bursts of power approaching 150 watts RMS. Unless you listen to your system from a distance, you cannot hear clipping distortion until it reaches extreme levels. At any SPL above approximately 90dB, your ears overload and cannot accurately convert the sound pressure to the electrical impulses which are sent to your brain. Since most amplifiers are capable of producing more than one watt of power & most speakers will produce at least 88 dB of sound pressure at 1 watt of input at 1 meter, it is very difficult to hear minimal distortion at 10, 20, 50 or more watts. If you want to see if you're driving your system into clipping, play some familiar music at the high volume & step far away from you vehicle with the doors open & listen for distortion in your 'highs'. No one can tell if you will blow your speakers with a given amplifier. They may be able to tell you whether or not a pair of speakers will be able to handle a given amount of continuous RMS power. One of the most important things to understand is that an amplifier that produces less clipping at higher levels is less likely to do damage to your speakers than an amplifier that clips earlier as it runs out of headroom. Think of how clipping affects a speaker. A severely clipped AC signal acts like a constant DC voltage applied to your speaker & at higher power levels, it's just like pushing the cone out & holding it there which is bad news as the voice-coil rapidly heats to failure. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 09/03/2009 16:38:47 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 17:02:48
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Or DeFrag.... wot he said... ..so you would have 10 watts with 2 x 5 watt amps but probably not the same loudness as a 10 watter....i had remembered something similar from an article about Brian May from Queen who uses a stack of AC-30's but it didn't mean 100's of watts on stage,still agree with Goran that two amps with a stereo effect sound great...... |
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Joske Turbo
Silver Member
Belgium
412 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 17:22:43
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THAT AMP IS GREAT!!! I can absolutely recommend one, and, believe me, they are LOUD! Great for clean, surfy Dick Dale style, blues rock, classic rock, hard rock and even some metal. I prefer mine w/o any pedals, but I'm thinking of buying the FRV-1 for it (for surf and so). It complements my SS Marshall very well. I can run them both dirty, both clean, or one clean and one dirty. Or the one dry and the other one wet. Oh, before I forget to mension, I have the head and cabinet, but as the combo also has a 12" the sound will be equal (the price is equal anyway). I think the Tiny Terror is also good, but a bit pricey if you match with the Blackheart( haven't tried a TT yet). If I was you, I'd have bought one already!
 Joske "Blackheart lover" Turbo |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 18:40:41
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| I will not quote you DeFrag, but it was sure a great answer to a short question The last one is for Franzoni |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 18:46:31
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Regarding the amps, I have both an Orange Tiny Terror & a Blackheart Little Giant (combo) & must say they complement each other EXTREMELY well.
The Tiny Terror is for the most part, a one-trick pony. Its creamy high-gain tone is to die for. Sure it doesn't do cleans with any volume but it wasn't made for that purpose. It provides a little clean tone if you roll of your guitar volume quite a bit & turn the gain down but its not very loud like this. It really excels at the warm gainy sounds & it does not disappoint. Some guys actually gig with it in small venues but the need for micing the cab it's run through quickly becomes a necessity as the venue size increases as you don't want the guitarist drowned out by the other players. Keep in mind the Terror doesn't take OD/Dist pedals well at all; it has all you need.
The Little Giant is an exceptional value for the quality you get inside. This amp takes pedals very well.. its like it was MADE for pedals. Of course it's no Fender Reverb amp but it gives very clean tones.. almost too clean as you really have to crank it for some bluesy breakup. I don't know how, but I picked up my combo for $100 less than the $350 it sells for today. I don't have an Epiphone VJ but sincerely believe you get more amp for your money with a Blackheart & I've raved to all who would listen ever since I took delivery of mine of its advantages: tone, quality, & value.
I run my Ric360 stereo Left-channel (bridge pickup) to my Egnater Rebel 20 & the Right-channel (neck pickup) through a Radial Engineering Tonebone Headbone-VT amp head switcher to safely route to either the Blackheart (for my cleans) or Tiny Terror (grit). Its a really handy setup; more people should try getting their tone from different amps &/or a stereo setup rather than 40' of cable through a bunch of pedals.
My Egnater Rebel is a product exercise in versatility. It does cleans, grit, & everything in between. With its continuously variable wattage (1-20W), variable tube selector (EL84 & 6V6), voicing switches, & effects loop, it has become my goto amp & the one I tend to grab on the way out of the house. It's not a Class-A amplifier.. but it sure sounds great.
The other amp I've been considering is the VOX Night Train. I have yet to give it a round but have heard many demos & my son loved it when he tried it out recently. Class-A amps are so cool. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 09/03/2009 18:51:31 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 19:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Goran
I will not quote you DeFrag, but it was sure a great answer to a short question The last one is for Franzoni
yep.... poor ol' DasBeef..all he wanted to know was is the blackheart stuff any good and whats a stereo setup like... he will be reading for hours..........have a couple on me goran..
P.S. what two amp you running these days in stereo at home...? |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 09/03/2009 19:24:24 |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 20:25:35
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Some great reading here! Thanks guys.
FRANZONI - Ha ha! There is a fair bit of reading, but this is exactly the type of responses I was hoping to get. A full understanding so I can weigh up whether to hunt out a slightly more powerful amp, or add to my wee 5 watter stereo stylee. Gauging by your responses, I think you may lean slightly towards the stereo setup? 
DeFrag - Understand what you are saying about 10dB being double the loudness, and NOT double the wattage output. Thanks for a long and very clear response. Couple of things I can't quite get my brain around....
Would running two 5watt amps give you the same loudness as one 10watt amp. I realise from your post that speakers etc. come into it. But in principle? So say you were too....
....take two identical Epi Valve Juniors Combos, and you ran them at full volume. You then plugged the output of a similar 10watt head into the two speakers of the Epi Valve Junior Combo's, and ran that at full volume. If you had a dB meter, it would read the same for both setups?
Also if I were to run the two 5watts amps (giving 10watts), against the Tiny Terror rocking at a full 15watts, the difference in 'loudness' would be apparent, but not huge?
Thanks again for giving me some interesting reading guys.... |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 20:31:39
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My experience with stereo is with 50W marshall heads. Two 50W heads sound marginally louder than one 50W head (that 3dB Defrag was talking about).... BUT
The thing you will find that completely overwhelms any real or perceived change in volume is the increase in depth. Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo (not the LM-10) and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away. It's one of those never-go-back experiences.
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Witloofboer
Gold Member
Belgium
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 20:35:36
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To make it even more complicated: Epiphone manifactures two 'hot rodded' versions of the Valve Junior:
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Valve Senior. It has gain, reverb and EQ controls and is rated at 18 W.-
Valve Junior. It features a reverb tank and a gain control.
I like the idea of using a small amp, but I couldn't use mine at rehearsals (other band members were too loud  ). |
Edited by - Witloofboer on 09/03/2009 20:39:56 |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 20:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
quote:
Originally posted by Goran
I will not quote you DeFrag, but it was sure a great answer to a short question The last one is for Franzoni
yep.... poor ol' DasBeef..all he wanted to know was is the blackheart stuff any good and whats a stereo setup like... he will be reading for hours..........have a couple on me goran..
P.S. what two amp you running these days in stereo at home...?
I use a modded Epi V Jr and a Vox AC4TV, home and when jamming.
Against all my "hate" of digital modelling I really like Line6 Spider III 15 at home, I have used Roland Micro Cube for the last 3-4 years but it has retired now
And this is for you Franzoni |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 20:42:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
My experience with stereo is with 50W marshall heads. Two 50W heads sound marginally louder than one 50W head (that 3dB Defrag was talking about).... BUT
The thing you will find that completely overwhelms any real or perceived change in volume is the increase in depth. Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo (not the LM-10) and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away. It's one of those never-go-back experiences.
Again, possibly a newbie question but why the above in red?
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Blackheart Little Giant Combo
