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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2009 : 21:45:52
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Red means ...DANGER WILL ROBINSON......  sorry couldn't resist..
as you can see from Gorans post he's running a vox and a epi and for home/studio use that would be quite loud for most people... but as you can see with witloofboers response..in a band situation small amps like this even with good monitoring would get lost in the mix even with a moderate drummer...also as Goran,Laurie and i have said ..going stereo is really a experience if you have never tried it especially with a good stereo delay and chorus .....from some of your previous posts i see you like using distortion/overdrive/fuzz pedals as i do... i find for my situation,i have to cover a broad range of tones that a amp with a lot of cleanish headroom works best for me and i can dirty the sound up from a pedal if i want/have to....Blackheart also make a 15 wattcombo and head called the 'handsome devil' that i quite like the look/spec of..but i'm after ordering a load of stuff for my new rig off thomann so Mrs F would have a wobbler if i bought anything else.... ...... |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 21:54:55
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If you push 2 * 5W, or 1 * 10W, its 10W of energy no matter how you count it.
Ignoring the fact that in your first scenario the two 5W speakers are physically separated from each other will exhibit a certain level of phase-cancellation as compared to a single 10W driver, & also ignoring the fact that the SPL meter may be positioned in an inumerable ways in front of two 5W amps as compared to the single 10W, in theory, the readings should read identical. But there are too many variables & a couple of decibels are not effectively discernible.
If you pump 10W through a single 12" speaker & A/B as compared to splitting 10W through two 12" speakers, it seems louder through the two 12" speakers as you're moving more air (but with less energy per driver as the power is split) but its a wash. Speaker types, efficiencies, cabinet & baffle design, & many other factors come into play here. Generally speaking though I think most people have found (from what I've read) that for a given power level, a 4x12 is louder than a 2x12 which in turn is louder than a 1x12. I think it has more to do with the spatial separation of the drivers even though there are some slight signal losses as the power is split by the slightest differences in impedances between speakers, phase-cancellaton between multiple drivers in the same cabinet, etc.
If you had the ability to A/B identical amps with the same speaker/cab, tone-stack, tubes, etc. with the only difference being power output or wattage, (I think an Egnater Rebel might be a good example for such a test) & were able to set the output to 10W vs. 15W, you would not be able to tell the difference in loudness.
All the boutique class-A amps manufacturers are jumping over each other to make are conveniently touted as "bedroom" &/or studio amps so they get their tone fully cranked but being of smaller wattage output, less volume as well. Generally speaking it's true, but in all practicality, a 5W or 10W amp is pretty damned loud. I mean to say, they can't push to medium/large venue unless mic'ed but they're no Dick Tracy wristwatch speaker either.
In any case, Blackheart makes the 15W Handsome Devil if you think you want a bit more than 5W.
Goran mentioned the VOX AC4TV... its on my radar as well.
Epis are alright even though I have no experience with them. Some guys love 'em & the price is right.
I just can't seem to recommend anything to anyone that I wouldn't buy myself you know? I think that's the way it should be... & feel there are better value (quality, tone) units out there on which I'd rather see you spend your money.
quote:
Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo ... and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away.
I think these type of effects are considered to be the types that present a rich, lush, most prominent, spatial expansion when run in stereo & just sound airy & open. Even something as simple as running a wet mix on one side of a stereo setup & dry on the other is just different enough to open up the sound. Reverb is in a classic sense, the first effect people incorporate besides open-backed cabs to create open & natural sounding music. Distortions (if different, even slightly between the two channels) can be, but not as, effective in creating this separation as the aforementioned (modulated) effects. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 09/03/2009 22:01:48 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 23:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by DeFrag
quote:
Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo ... and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away.
I think these type of effects are considered to be the types that present a rich, lush, most prominent, spatial expansion when run in stereo & just sound airy & open. Even something as simple as running a wet mix on one side of a stereo setup & dry on the other is just different enough to open up the sound. Reverb is in a classic sense, the first effect people incorporate besides open-backed cabs to create open & natural sounding music. Distortions (if different, even slightly between the two channels) can be, but not as, effective in creating this separation as the aforementioned (modulated) effects.
One of the best i've heard on soundclips is the discontinued TC Electronics 1210 spatial expander..this is what the big boys use but i saw one on ebay for 900 euro....  ....serious wedge but a serious piece of kit.... |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
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phostenix
Gold Member
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 05:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo (not the LM-10) and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away. It's one of those never-go-back experiences.
Agreed! Of course, then you have to go to a Wet/Dry/Wet setup.  |
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Witloofboer
Gold Member
Belgium
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 09:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DeFrag
If you had the ability to A/B identical amps with the same speaker/cab, tone-stack, tubes, etc. with the only difference being power output or wattage, (I think an Egnater Rebel might be a good example for such a test) & were able to set the output to 10W vs. 15W, you would not be able to tell the difference in loudness.
All the boutique class-A amps manufacturers are jumping over each other to make are conveniently touted as "bedroom" &/or studio amps so they get their tone fully cranked but being of smaller wattage output, less volume as well. Generally speaking it's true, but in all practicality, a 5W or 10W amp is pretty damned loud. I mean to say, they can't push to medium/large venue unless mic'ed but they're no Dick Tracy wristwatch speaker either.
The difference in loudness between 1W and 10W is the same difference as between 10W & 100W. So 10W is loud. My small (1,5W) amp is still quite loud when I compare it to my large amp (100W).
Anyway, I would recommend using a large speaker (10"+). I use a 6", and it doesn't sound as fat as I hoped it would. When I send the signal through my large amp's speakers, it sounds fatter & larger. |
Edited by - Witloofboer on 09/04/2009 09:02:14 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 09:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by phostenix
quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo (not the LM-10) and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away. It's one of those never-go-back experiences.
Agreed! Of course, then you have to go to a Wet/Dry/Wet setup.
Thats what i'm building at the moment....it's what a lot of the top pro's use.... |
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Witloofboer
Gold Member
Belgium
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 09:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
quote:
Originally posted by phostenix
quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
Use a chorus/flanger/delay pedal to split the signal into stereo (not the LM-10) and the sound out of the two amps will blow you away. It's one of those never-go-back experiences.
Agreed! Of course, then you have to go to a Wet/Dry/Wet setup.
Thats what i'm building at the moment....it's what a lot of the top pro's use....
So you'll get a sort of 'Trio' setup?  |
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Scarymonsta
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 10:09:23
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I recently had been searching through the market for a smallish valve head - something that would still sound good at lower levels in the bedroom but loud enough for a small pub gig.
Was interested in the Blackheart range as well, but couldn't find anywhere in the UK close enough to me to try any out with my gear (but had tried the combo out at a guitar show - thought it sounded great)
Took my Les Paul Standard to the music shop and tried the following through a Marshall 4x12 1960A.
Vox Nightrain 15W
Blackstar HT-5 head
Hayden Mofo 30W/15W
I bought the Hayden.
I love the headroom of the thing - and the fact that even with a lot of gain u can still distinguish all the strings - just what I wanted. The pedals sound totally different through it - got some work to do twiddling knobs re-adjust the settings for valves, as they need so much less to overdrive.
I have really just been playing it clean at the moment - plus a little bit with my own modded SD-1. Just love the clean sound on the neck pick up. I like that with the gain cranked all the way it doesn't go into that heavy metal zone (of which I am a fan but have many pedals to do that for me) just goes into a pretty hard but still warm rock sound.
The Vox and the Blackstar had more clean room on the gain and slightly brighter sounds, but then went into metal meltdown after about 12 o'clock - designers still wanting to appeal to a super high gain crowd I guess. But good sounding amps never the less - shame Blackstar hadn't released a slightly higher power version of their tiny head - the choice then may have been closer, but I still think the Hayden would have got it.
It has a boost switch, to add in a little more "oomph" without the complication of it being a two channel amp. I also discovered the "stealth" switch underneath the amp which lets me play with master volume at eleven without blowing the windows out the bedroom studio.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 10:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Witloofboer
So you'll get a sort of 'Trio' setup?
Stereo on the two outside speakers/amps(in my case a stereo power amp and two 1x12 cabs line out signal for my amp via mic preamp feeding the pod xt pro and dynacord leslie unit) and you normal amp in the middle 'dry'...ie...only overdrives or boost pedals going in the front end...all timebased stuff in the wet side... you can also do it with two amps,keep one clean and the other wet....mine won't be fully dry..i'm keeping my CE-2 and my TR-2 in the front end of my amp..id Dasbeef goes with two amps the wet/dry setup is something he could try as well..... |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 15:16:00
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wet-dry-wet is the way to go...
I only play in the basement at the moment so weight/portability is not an issue. My rig has two Marshall JCM600 heads and 1960A cabs as the wet-wet pair (the JCM600 has a really good transparent clean channel - probably the best of any Marshall). The "dry" middle has a Marshall JMP45 metal-face plexi on a 1960B cab for dirt and a Fender CVR (Customshop Vibrolux Reverb) with the Moyer mods for the clean.
I didn't set out to build a rig exactly like this - this is just gear I've managed to get seriously cheap over the years. As time goes by, I hope to move to vintage for everything (similar to Eric Johnson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFFXvPV9XE)
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 16:15:01
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Laurie....i would reckon that you setup is monster sounding...... unfortunately there is only so far my bandmates will let me go to.....1x12's are more portable for the wet cabs..i had played with the idea of still running the two amps in the middle 'dry' because i love the tone of them so much...i like the mix of the marshall and the musicman together... salt and pepper still might do it yet......
P.S. ...i love this vid as well johnsons tones are amazing... |
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Witloofboer
Gold Member
Belgium
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 23:01:38
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@ Franzoni: I'm not interested in a job as a roadie in your band. I only use one amp + leslie + pedals. I thought my rig was large & heavy, but when compared to yours... Although I have to say I would like to hear you guys playing. The music on your myspace page is great.
@Laurie: Eric Johnson has some of the best clean sounds I've ever heard, but his dirty ones are a bit to 'sterile' for me. |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
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Blackheart Little Giant Combo
