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dean
Copper Member
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2009 : 01:10:12
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Dear Forum,
I have been playing guitar for 30 years but am still a home hobby guitarist. I have many guitars and a Marshall MG100 DFX Amp. My question is this. I used a Zoom effects multi effects pedal for a long time and was happy until I decided to do it properly and go individual pedals. I decided on Boss, so I purchased a DS-1, MD-2, CE-5 and FDR-1. The DFR-1 was an error, I thought it was just a reverb pedal but it turned out to be a 1965 amp simulator of some sort. Anyway, I then purchased the Boss BCB-60 to house them in, really nice, well built and leaves neat clean wiring etc. By the way, I also have the Boss RC-20XL loop station in the pedal board too.
All this was brilliant, until, I then discovered the Native Instruments Guitar Rig 3 software. I am running an iMac with a Edirol Firewire audio interface, so this software works brilliantly through my Mac. I run the inputs and outputs through my Mackie mixer via the effects loop of my amp and it sounds brilliant.
My real problem is this. Having spent time and money getting the Boss individual pedals and board, I am now wondering if I have done the right thing? As the Guitar Rig 3 software sounds great in my setup, have I wasted my money getting the Boss pedals? I am thinking that individual pedals will sound much better but when I compare, I cannot convince myself. Maybe they will sound better in a live louder environment?
I have looked for hours on Google but nothing really positive found yet. I was hoping this Forum might help?
All the very best and thank you for your help.
Dean. |
Edited by - dean on 07/15/2009 01:13:24 |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 01:57:19
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Hello, and welcome to the forum.
The only thing I can add to this is that computer effects are simulating the sound of the pedals. Nothing beats the true organic tone of a pedal, for me anyway. But all of this is personal preference. You might actually prefer a simulated version?
Also, I would add that some boss pedals sound better than others, as with any pedal brand. I personally have 3 DS-1's. One is an early Japanese model, a later Japanese model, and a made in Taiwan model. The old Japanese one sounds best, and the later Japanese one, to my ear doesn't give quite as much gain, or volume. The Taiwan model sounds rubbish to my ear. I read somewhere on this forum though that someone had a Taiwan DS-1 that they were delighted with. You won't get these subtle changes with the simulations. I enjoy messing around with the different versions.
If you ever intended to play live, pedals would be a must.
And to sum up, I've been messing around with Garageband, and I would not dream of plugging my guitar straight into the Mac, and using the effects that come with it. I love the true sound of some of the pedals I have amassed, and use an amp and mic set up. It's all about achieving the sound you are happy with at the end of the day. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 07:32:27
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Welcome to the forum...
I lean towards Dasbeefs point of view on this,i use the same amp as you for rehearsing and i use valve amps for live work,try running your boss pedals through the clean channel on the marshall,crank up the volume and have a Marty McFly moment.... you could also try putting the CE-5 in the marshalls effect loop but any distortions like the DS-1 in the front of the amp....i've heard great things about guitar rig but for me anyway i like to feel and hear the roar of an amp behind me with a couple of good pedals/effects and a good guitar...(plus my boss pedals have survived numerous pints of guinness being spilled on them.. ) i have the line 6 pod xt pro that i tried using live a number of times and it just didn't cut it in the live enviroment,this is where i think a lot of the digital simulators fall down but for home use your guitar rig software is quite possibly just as good which if going into a mackie mixer where you can EQ it to suit the amps speaker,personally i don't like the sound of my guitar coming out of full range speakers(which a lot of people recommend for this type of software normally) unless it's got a mic in front on the speaker on my amp and even then i'm pretty fussy about the type of speaker being miked up,best results i've got is the celestion greenback with a sennheiser 825..... but for home use if your happy with the sound trust your ears.... ............ |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/15/2009 07:39:01 |
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applesforjonah
Bronze Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 07:59:13
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Welcome dean:
It's a subject that comes down to preference, IMO. I agree with DasBeef and Franzoni. I wouldn't trade the individual sound of compact pedals for a rig that consolidates everything down to one item, but if you dig the tone then that's what you need to do.
I personally like the tone, sound, and capabilities possible with the compact pedals and being able to arrange them in different order to get the sound I want. And as Franzoni pointed out, they are well built and can take a pounding (or drowning from beer!)
Plus, it just looks cool to see a massive pedal board in a live gig with all the different pedals, IMO.
Good luck with your decision! |
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JCM800PDX
Bronze Member
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 08:29:57
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| Another fun aspect of individual pedals is that modifications are often simple enough for the average user. I'd be weary of trying to modify an expensive and complex multi-effect unit, but I wouldn't think twice about changing a few caps and resistors in the MIT DS-1 that I bought for $15. Keeley Mod here I come! |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 09:00:56
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Hi Dean and welcome!
I've been through the same analysis process. I've been a "home hacker" guitarist for 30+ years and I used rack-mount multi-effects for years, then software based effects.
I rediscovered pedals about 4 years ago and the pedal epiphany was directly aligned with buying my first really serious tube amp. I'd had a Marshall combo, a small Peavey tube combo, and a home built tube head before, but nothing prepared me for the sound and feel of a couple of good pedals in front of a Marshall stack. The MG100 is a good amp, but it isn't the same animal (at all) as a JCM800 head sitting on a 4x12.
I've ended up with a pair of JCM600 heads in a stereo rig. As Franzoni said, the first chord was a "Marty McFly moment". The rack mount effects and software still sound OK, but side-by-side with the pedals, the pedals win hands down. The word that springs to mind is "grunt".
I then discovered modding and collecting, and the the rest is history...
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Edited by - Laurie on 07/15/2009 09:02:06 |
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Dirk
Platinum Member
Netherlands
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 09:48:33
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I also don't see a lot of people using a laptop onstage for their effects needs, it's more of a studio use I guess.
Plus, as Laurie pointed out, transistor amps and tube react differently to effects, I've had an HM-2 for a while which sounded good in front of the clean channel of my JCM 800, but totally sucked in front of my valvestate transistor amp. (the bees in a jar sound again.) |
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dean
Copper Member
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 11:05:51
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Well, what can I say, wow, thank you, fantastic. Thank you so much all of you for those prompt and informative replies and for welcoming me as a new user of this forum. I'm not quoting any particular one of your replies here as they are all excellent and they all helped me a lot. I am definitely going to stay here, I have so much more stuff to talk about and more equipment to discuss. Hopefully, I can also give my valuable input and help others here too.
I think you have convinced me to stay with the Boss pedals and pedal board. That pleases me in a way, as I purchased them all brand new and feel so much better keeping them. I think you are right about playing louder in a live situation, I don't tend to crank up the volume too much, maybe I should... I will be swapping the FDR-1 though for the Boss reverb, I think it's the FRV-5. As I said earlier, I purchased the FDR-1 thinking it was the reverb.
I think the other thing I was originally worried about was, are pedals going to die out in the future in favour of effects racks and software driven apps? I have read many posts on the net about people no longer needing their pedals, even in live bands in favour of software effects? After reading all your replies however, I now don't think this is so as it looks like pedals are the proper way forward and just cannot be beaten?
Thank you all once again for your replies, this looks like a great place to hang out.
By the way, I know what you mean about the pedals taking a pounding (or drowning from beer!) I have had some near misses with my old equipment with beer, hopefully won't spill any on my new ones though!
Thank again.
Dean.
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Edited by - dean on 07/15/2009 11:11:24 |
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applesforjonah
Bronze Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 11:47:22
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Glad to see that we could be of help dean.
I certainly think that there are always going to be movements in the music/gear scene, with multieffects and individual pedals being two seperate movements. But we can see that with some of the pedals still being used (such as the MIJ "vintage" boss pedals) are able to withstand time and abuse time and again.
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dthurstan
Copper Member
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 12:08:34
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Dean
Are you going to purchase the RV-5 or FRV-1? I'm interested to hear what the FRV-1 is like.
Cheers
Dave |
Edited by - dthurstan on 07/15/2009 12:08:54 |
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dean
Copper Member
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 12:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dthurstan
Dean
Are you going to purchase the RV-5 or FRV-1? I'm interested to hear what the FRV-1 is like.
Cheers
Dave
Hi Dave,
The pedal I brought by mistake (�109) was the FDR-1, which is the 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverb Amp Simulator. This is a nice amp simulator pedal but is not what I wanted. The FRV-1 is the 1963 Fender Reverb version.
The pedal I actually want is the reverb RV-5 unit. I believe this is the only latest Boss reverb pedal available? I only need reverb nothing else on a single pedal. I have placed an order with my local shop (I like to keep music retail shops in business rather than buying online) and am waiting for it to come into stock. I am not sure if they will take back my FDR-1 though.
I will let you know when the RV-5 arrives and give you feedback accordingly.
All the best.
Dean. |
Edited by - dean on 07/15/2009 12:47:29 |
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silvertone6120
Gold Member
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 16:02:18
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Dean,
IMO I don't think pedals will be dying out anytime soon. I remember back in the 80s everybody thought everything was going to solid state amps and rack mounted effects. Well...that didn't happen; there was too many of us walking around lugging our heavy tube amps and BCB-6 pedalboards into night clubs and bars. Even Boss tried more or less going in this direction. There was a period in their history(they touched on it in The Boss Book) in the early 90s where Boss put out several multi-effect units(BE-5 for example) and didn't issue any compacts! I'm thinking I read that in 1992 Boss released no compact pedals, concentrating only on multi-effect boards. But I guess that came full circle...back to compacts, probably due to demand from players(that would be my guess anyway).
And if I had to venture a guess I'd say pedals won't be going anywhere anytime soon. |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 16:21:00
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Hi dean
Welcome to the forum from Australia.
You have asked one of the most hotly debated,
& probably never to be resolved questions in the music trade.
Hardware vs Software.
I have read innumerable articles & posts on this subject.
People seem to sit on either side - or have a foot in both.
Some of my opinions & take on the matter are as follows:
I have both hardware & software.
As well a a few different hardware DSP amp emulators like the POD & the GT-x series of mFX.
I use all three variations to my advantage.
The software emulators (similar to your Guitar Rig) are only used
at home or in the studio.
The hardware I use live - I sometimes also take & use a POD - GT-x - Zoom - Korg or other DSP hardware emulator.
Depending on the gig.
I have had good & bad times with all the various bits of gear.
The software I purchased was as expensive - if not more so, than a lot of the hardware.
If I remember It was around $880au - & after the initial wow factor wore off, I did feel a bit cheated, holding just a CD & a small manual in a glossy box.
And it became even worse, when a minor system OS update stopped the software working, until I downloaded the new patch after patch after patch.
I have never had to patch a pedal, mFX, rack or keyboard unit.
I have some going back to the early 70's that will probably still be running in another 20 years.
I can't really see that happening with the VSTi's on my computers.
I have learned to think of them as very expensive & expendable.
I must admit I did purchase a few VSTi keyboard emulators,
The keyboards are no long made & are just too expensive to own otherwise.
In a controlled environment like a home or studio, these are still pretty good to use, and do sound great in the overall mix.
Some of the software allows you to setup conditions that are just impossible in the real world.
But in the end, my hardware is always there.
I don't need to add the cost of a computer-laptop, MIDI controller, or a box that allows me to rotate the on screen knobs in real time, & not with a mouse.
There are some horrible button pushing deep edit menus,
on some of the early digital rack gear as well,
but rack gear seems to have gone out of favor in recent times,
& rack units seem to sell for lot less or not at all.
I can't imagine the long term resale value of the software products.
And here in Australia they are heavily overpriced.
To sum up this epic & probably confusing reply.
The day they fit a guitar socket to a laptop or iPod,
is the day I'll be a happy man and,
I'll reconsider using the software in a live situation.
Until them , I am one of the folks that has a foot in both camps.
But I will always love the hands on feeling of turning real knobs & pushing real buttons.
And the tone & punch of a real tube amp running in or near the sweet spot.
Basically use & enjoy the gear that you own,
use them all to your full advantage.
Write & play music, & worry less about the actual gear,
in the end, that's what it's really all about.
Can I ask which Zoom gear-product you have?
As I have a soft spot for Zoom gear, the ZNR (Zoom Noise Reduction).
is one of the best keep secrets in the industry.
Unless you have $3K-$5K for some Eventide units.
Regards Dr. Bob 
5500 |
Edited by - Dr. Bob on 07/15/2009 16:35:14 |
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PaulH
Gold Member
535 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 22:39:40
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Hardware will still work in 20, 30, 50 years time.
Software will be out of date, and possibly unusable, in a few years.
Hardware still has excellent resale value, even stuff 20+ years old.
Software... you'll never recoup your money spent, and in afew years time you'll probably not be able to give it away. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 22:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by applesforjonah
Plus, it just looks cool to see a massive pedal board in a live gig with all the different pedals, IMO.
Good luck with your decision!
Heh heh...love seeing the look on some guys faces when they see the two big valve amps and the boss pedalboard...especially when they see the ol' CE-2.... ..i've got some people who can't believe the sound out of that pedal...........
As for the question of pedals or valve amps ever going out of fashion again all is possible...but don't tell JJ tubes as they built a big factory in slovakia a while back to put good quality tubes in producion again............ |
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The_Doc
Gold Member
United Kingdom
509 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2009 : 22:43:34
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Hi dean,
Try disabling you Guitar Rig 3 effects (just use the amp & speaker sims) and put your DS-1 between your guitar and your audio interface = best of both worlds - I do it all the time for recording, especially when I haven't got the time or space to set up my amps / mic them up, etc. Not something to do in front of a live audience but good enough for a properly mixed / eq'd recording.
I use an early version of Amplitube on a PC or various Line6 PODs and I just think it's great to have the choice to mix & match & experiment in the studio with combinations of pedals & software.
I've also been known to put a pedal in front of a Boss GT-5 (for the amp sims), then into a Line POD (for the speaker sims) then into the PC for vintage eqs and compression - mad and probably completely unecessary I know but top fun!! |
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Individual pedals versus computer effects
