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Johnrocks
Silver Member
Brazil
175 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2008 : 19:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sirshack
I notice some tone suckage with my TU-2 and maybe a tad with my HM-2....not so much with any of my other Boss pedals.
Keep in mind that cables have a lot to do with tone sucking, too. The more length you're using the higher the capcitance (or something like that), which can affect your tone negatively. You can have a pedal that doesn't suck any tone at all...but if you're using 40 feet of cable (20 feet on each side of the pedal) to connect it it can potentially roll off a lot frequencies.
Sometimes lessening the amount of cable you're using or buying high quality cables is all you need to do avoid stuff like that.
Hi sir!
You are right and that�s the reason I only use the best cables ever! It seems that cables must be like 3 meters long for a good tone. |
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Shoegazers Anonymous
Silver Member
Sweden
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2008 : 08:18:17
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I have noticed while doing a a/b test that when plug my guitar right into the amp v.s put it in a chain of pedals, one or more. The difference is that when put the guitar right into amp it sounds better, a little more defined and with normal output. But as soon there is a pedal between the output decrease. If this is fixed with a linedriver to same volume in A/B-test there is not much difference. Not in the mix anyway. So, to solve the problem I put in a SD-2 in the middle of the chain as my last distrotion box and keep it on with no overdrive but with level at max in crunch mode on all the time and use the lead-channel as a normal dist-box. Works great for me. No loss in signal and no noticable dynamic loss. I also use george L contacts and wire between my 14 pedals and good cables into chain and after chain. In my dreams I dream about plug my guitar right into my amp, but who can live without changing tone with fun pedals...
quote:
Originally posted by viking
Whats your take on this ?
Ive read a lot about buffers , true BP , and tonesucking over the years , but frankly , I cant really tell the difference.Vintage Wahs could suck some serious tone when bypassed , but newer versions with buffers dont really do much damage , according to my ears anyway....
So , your observations , please.....Whats the worst " tonesuckers " out there , Boss or otherwise ?
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Iversen
Bronze Member
Denmark
111 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 16:08:09
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
In 30 years of playing music, listening to music, and watching live music, I've never ever heard or seen an effect pedal suck tone.
Can anyone show me (and I've asked this before) an example <audio or video> of this tone sucking thing actually happening.
I agree that sometimes people whine way too much about how buffered pedals suck tone and all that, but try an unmodified Cry Baby! That's gonna turn you into a believer right then and there - they suck tone big time!  |
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PaulH
Gold Member
535 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 19:09:07
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I used to own a Cry Baby and when it was "off" I never noticed any difference with or without it.
I sold because I hardly ever used it. |
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Leeroyfunk
Silver Member
United Kingdom
400 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 21:51:52
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The Boss buffered bypass has always been reputed to be one of the best compared to other non-true bypass pedals in a similar price range - I've put a string of Boss pedals in a TB looper and noticed a tiny, but insignificant difference in sound - You certainly couldn't call it "tone-sucking".
HOWEVER - I once owned a PSM-5, and there was a definite irritating loss of level and slight treble reduction when using the loop function: Could have been a faulty unit, but I've heard other mention the same problem. |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 02:37:40
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Well folks, I have my first Boss tone sucker. My PW-2, even in bypass, sucks the life out of the highs and upper mids. Drops them by about 3-6 dB I'd guess.
Has to be a fault somewhere, but I've heard it and it's real.
Will post what the problem is when I find it  |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 05:06:35
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I think that tone suffers when there a more than a few in a chain but it could be in part to the capacitance in the cables between them as well. Like if you have a 21' guitar cord running into 6 pedals, a 9" cable between each, & a final 12' to your amp... at this point, the loss of high frequency & subsequent clarity becomes discernable.
That's a lot of damned cable! I'd recommend subchains using a TB switcher (Ok, Boss eh.. LS-2 then) & maybe even those cordless 1/4" to 1/4" offset plugs between the pedals themselves.
I realize that if you run a shorter cord to the pedalboard you limit your freedom of movement & if you shorten the run from the board to your amp you lose the spacious sound the amp can fill the room more openly. I suppose its tit for tat. Or just tit. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 06/05/2008 06:14:41 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 05:15:37
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| Hmmm... all that is true - but this one is real. "off" pedal switched in and out of the chain with a true-bypass looper. |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by DeFrag
I think that tone suffers when there a more than a few in a chain but it could be in part to the capacitance in the cables between them as well. Like if you have a 21' guitar cord running into 6 pedals, a 9" cable between each, & a final 12' to your amp... at this point, the loss of high frequency & subsequent clarity becomes discernable.
That's a lot of damned cable! I'd recommend subchains using a TB switcher (Ok, Boss eh.. LS-2 then) & maybe even those cordless 1/4" to 1/4" offset plugs between the pedals themselves.
I realize that if you run a shorter cord to the pedalboard you limit your freedom of movement & if you shorten the run from the board to your amp you lose the spacious sound the amp can fill the room more openly. I suppose its tit for tat. Or just tit.
I am pretty sure that the lengths of the cable after the first buffered pedal has very little �tone sucking� effect. But if all pedals are true bypass, all the cables has a big �tone sucking� effect, when the effects are bypassed.
It has something to do with the impedance of the buffered pedal vs the pickups impedance.
Tone sucking by cable is not very nice to have, like in this example;
Assume you have five true bypass pedals and a lot of cable before the signal reaches the amp, you compensate for the loss of high end with the amps tone controls (when all pedals are off).
Then you turn the first pedal on, the impedance is different from when all was bypassed, there�s going to be more treble as the cable loss is not the same as when all was bypassed. And your amp is settled to compensate for the treble loss when everything is off�.
The solution is one buffer before all the true bypass pedals.
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 16:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Goran
[brI am pretty sure that the lengths of the cable after the first buffered pedal has very little �tone sucking� effect. But if all pedals are true bypass, all the cables has a big �tone sucking� effect, when the effects are bypassed.
It has something to do with the impedance of the buffered pedal vs the pickups impedance.
...
The solution is one buffer before all the true bypass pedals.
I'll stand behind your last sentence 100%. What you say regarding impedance is spot on. But..
The loss of high frequencies is mostly caused by cable capacitance. The longer the cable(s), the more capacitance, the greater the inherent signal loss at certain frequencies depending on the quality of construction & materials from which your cables are made.
If you have 40' of cable between your guit & amp, That's it.. you've got 40' cable & all the capacitance that comes with it. Perhaps you can dialin more treble freqs to compensate. Of course if you boost any signal, you also boost the noise within that signal & quite obviously the S/N ratio drops as the noise floor rises.
So everything is a trade off. I think most of us would recommend educating oneself by reading a lot, asking a lot of questions, & formulating your own opinion based on trial & error with your equipment to see what works for you. Always choose quality cables & try to incorporate true-bypass side chains of effects. Buffers are sometimes good & TB isn't always the right answer for a given configuration. But Goran has a good point in that first buffer in the chain.  |
Edited by - DeFrag on 06/05/2008 16:17:00 |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 17:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
Well folks, I have my first Boss tone sucker. My PW-2, even in bypass, sucks the life out of the highs and upper mids. Drops them by about 3-6 dB I'd guess.
Has to be a fault somewhere, but I've heard it and it's real.
Will post what the problem is when I find it
Hi Hi Laurie & Guys
A few months back I repaired a Dean Markley Overlord III overdrive pedal.
The solid state one.
It was by far the worst tone & volume sucker, I had ever encountered.
Long story, cut short, it turned out the 4066 FET switch/s had a couple of sections that went south, & from approx 180 ohms ON res. to about 4K ohms or more ON Res.
I had to dig the 4066 out of my 1980's box of bits.
Simple fix, but took a while to analyze, without a schematic.
I have been unable to locate one for the Overlord III, but I do have the one for the Tube version of the Overlord.
So maybe check the bypass FET's first, then the Tantalum caps & the electro's.
You did finally get an ESR meter didn't you? 
Regards Dr. Bob
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 19:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Bob
So maybe check the bypass FET's first, then the Tantalum caps & the electro's.
You did finally get an ESR meter didn't you?
Regards Dr. Bob
THanks Dr. Bob. Should be easy to trace - just inject a series of increasing frequency tones and just follow the schematic and see where they get attenuated. Because it's audible on bypass (cant tell through the distortion when the effect is on), it has to be either a FET or the input or output buffer.
I'l take a crack at it this weekend.
PS: no ESR meter yet... it's still in the pile of stuff to do, but closer to the bottom than the top
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Edited by - Laurie on 06/05/2008 19:30:51 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 17:33:58
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Well... It's NOT TRUE!!
There is a fault in my bypass looper. The pedal is FINE. No tone-suck. No problem.
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 17:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
Well... It's NOT TRUE!!
There is a fault in my bypass looper. The pedal is FINE. No tone-suck. No problem.
Hi Laurie
Maybe you Ummm Arhh, accidentally spilled some paint in it?... 
Regards Dr. Bob |
Edited by - Dr. Bob on 06/15/2008 17:45:19 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 18:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Bob
[Maybe you Ummm Arhh, accidentally spilled some paint in it?...
Regards Dr. Bob
Maybe...
I am intrigued about the fault though. Haven't pulled the rail apart yet, but it's kinda like there is a 0.047�F cap and a 50% voltage divider across the signal in that loop (and only that loop). I mean, it's just a 12V relay, so maybe the relay is toast.
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Topic |
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Any Boss pedals bad tone suckers ?
