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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2008 : 06:06:41
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I can't be buggered to find my last couple posts regarding single effects vs. multi-effects units, tone suckage, & other generalities along these same lines. So, compiled my thoughts from here & other forums into the following chapter. I think things like this should populate the Tech FAQ we have here at Bossarea. I suppose a concensus might be in order for anything Bossarea promotes as FAQ though. Whatever, anyway I apologize for having some of you who have read my other draft posts of the content appearing below. I simply wanted to get it all down in one spot. 
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I've been chasing tone for quite some time. I must say that with the purchase of my new Mesa Boogie & Orange TT amps, the limited time I've had the pleasure of spending with them has reinforced my belief that a mess of pedals only cruds up the mix. I'm not talking only about tone-suckage, buffering circuits, or multi-layered overdrive boosts into distortion on flanged phasers through pitch-shifted wah-delays etc.
Point #1:
Consider how many tone controls there are in your chain. Include signal coloration by knobs that aren't specificially labeled Bass, Treble, Mid, Fat, Muscle, Presence, High, Low, & Frequency. Every knob that modifies the signal: Sweep, Rate, Level, Mix, etc. colors the resulting output. Couple that idea with the endless cascades of pedals into pedals & one finally concludes that the endless variation of frustrating possibilities exist that is almost
insurmountable in seeking that perfect tone for which we all strive.
My guitar, my pedals, my amps, my mixer... all have tone controls. Are they working together or are they fighting each other? How to best set them ALL & in what combinations? If you set the best tone with pedals that are on, what happens if you turn one off & add two more into play? What a nightmare. If you have a tone control on each of 10 effects as well as your amp, it can be rather difficult to dial in your sound when they're all on. True, we hardly run 10 effects at once but conceptually, aren't they all fighting each other? Which Bass knob should you attenuate?
Point #2:
Gain circuits lower your S/N or signal-to-noise ratio. This is because our ears expect clarity & when you amplify a signal, you also amplify the noise within that signal. If you add a little noise to a pristine signal, it becomes rather prominent. Its almost like if you add a tablespoon of wine to a barrel of sewage, you get a barrel of sewage. Conversely, if you add a tablespoon of sewage to a barrel full of wine, you also get sewage. Keep the noise out or at least run a bare minimum of gain enhancing effects simultaneously. I'm sure you don't even have to imagine the sonic crap that comes from a noisy compressor before a boost, running in front of 2 or 3 overdrive & distortion boxes all on at the same time. Try playing an articulate chord through all that mud. On a side note, too much delay & reverb sounds mushy.
Point #3:
If you aren't satisfied at the very basic tone from your guitar to your amplifier w/o effects, then how in the hell is a buttload of effects going to help? I'm slowly realizing the obvious. I'm using a lot less pedals simultaneously now & only for subtle effect. I don't need guitar-jets swooshing & diving all about while speaking vocal "oohs" & "ahhs". I'm trying to get back to a basic vintage guitar sound, ya know? Sure, slight stereophonic ambience creates a rich, lush presence but endless bouncing delays through sewer pipes & distorted mush just isn't cutting it anymore. Think clarity, subtlety; clean things up a bit.
Keep it simple. Take advantage of multiple loops. Run a Boss LS-2 or other loop unit to break your effects into separate blocks to minimize noise & tone degradation. Although True-bypass pedals is a long-standing debate, they allow you to fully remove them, their buffers, & their AD/DA converters from the chain. Also, keep cables as short as possible. & close-mic your sources.
Point #4:
Say you have 10 pedals vs. a multi-effect unit. The individual pedals have buffered inputs whereas the multi-effect unit only has one. There would be more signal degradation through many pedals as compared to the multi. Additionally, many pedals today are digital. This means you have an AD converter on the input & a DA converter on the output. When you daisy-chain many of these together, latency rises. Combine this latency with 1ms/ft between you & your amp or speaker & you'll soon perceive the inherent delay that has built up. This exhibition is not unlike recording with ambient room mics as the delay approaches noticability.
Conclusion:
Shoot for less pedals to get your sound & strive for clarity. Multi-effects units minimize noise & tone suckage due to the fact that you'd be running fewer buffers & converters in your chain. If you like all your single effects, try setting all tone controls to unity & running a Parametric EQ at the end of your chain. Use True-bypass pedals or incorporate dedicated loops into your chain to further minimize signal degradation.
I hope this helps focus a few of you guys. I got all wrapped up in my pedal collection & as proud as I am in my materialistic ways, we must learn to use them judiciously & with meaningful effectiveness. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 01/30/2008 06:20:32 |
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pedals 4 pv
Platinum Member
Canada
1351 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 06:41:02
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| MULTI-EFFECTS ARE FOR SISSIES |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 06:50:01
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'bout time ya showed up tonight!  |
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Dirk
Platinum Member
Netherlands
1309 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 17:43:39
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I agree with DeFrag.
Also on a sidenote, putting all modulation and echo stuff like chorus, delay, reverb, etc in the amps loop cleans up your signal considerably plus the fact that these usually sound better when placed after (amp)distortion. |
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pedals 4 pv
Platinum Member
Canada
1351 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 20:33:14
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| That's it! Put your Multi-effects in the amps effects loop for amazing results |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 07:00:08
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quote:
Originally posted by pedals 4 pv
MULTI-EFFECTS ARE FOR SISSIES
Hey pedals 4 pv
Them there's fightin' words......  
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pedals 4 pv
Platinum Member
Canada
1351 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 08:08:55
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| Fight! Oh no Dr.Bob. I am a Harley Davidson enthusiast. What could possibly give you the idea that I would display any pugnatious behaviour. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 15:29:53
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i gave up on using multi effects on gigs a while back as i find them too fiddly for 'on the fly' adjustments..i still have the pod xt pro but i mostly use it for recording where i think it's real talents are..... but lately i have been thinking of racking it with a power amp and some full range speakers as an acoustic amp as my fender coranado and my acoustics sound pretty good messing with them on the acoustic programme on the pod... the amp and speakers would only be low wattage for a backline monitor for me as our singer can't seem to leave the desk or monitor mix alone on gigs.... as far as i know pat metheny does something similar on a bigger scale with a digitech 2112 and he gets one of the best tones i've ever heard. ...
pedals4pv.... i don't have a hog bro' but i have a 97 suzuki 1200 bandit in the garage that i don't get a chance to drive much since the kids came along... all the bikers i know are a big bunch of pussycats.........yeah right.....!!!..... |
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jaymzHal
Silver Member
United Kingdom
297 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 18:30:02
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I've been having similar thoughts lately, especially with regards to ramping up and down volume. The sound of a guitar at a certain decibel level is without fail nicer than one that has had its volume halved then doubled. It will give out the same decibels but there is always a loss. I generally try and run my compressor pretty hot to compensate for this, but it would be nice to try out a range of boosters. Some effects I find to be particularly greedy when it comes to robbing you of tone, especially cheaper ones. I think that eventually that's the way I'm going to go, less effects, but higher quality (if i can afford it!). It's a bit depressing that when i want a clean tone i'd rather run straight into the amp than through my effects because it "sounds better". Having said that, some pedals are just fantastic regardless of their faults, so I don't think i've lost the boss addiction just yet  |
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StratoSphere
Double Platinum Member
Canada
2232 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 13:45:07
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hey Defrag, ive been meaning to read over this thread for quite some time now..
its funny but recently ive been discovering this too. lately ive been plugging my strat straight into my amp or sometimes have an OD-1 in there. i almost feel guilty about this but it just sounds so much more pristine. (god i feel like one of those "tone monkeys" that i used to hate! pompous bastards!)
the thing about multis though is some people dont like menu surfing and setting their pedals with buttons and switches and such. plus many will argue that stomps sound better than the effects on a multi. i do, but i havent tried a multi in some time now and im sure they sound better these days.
for clean/dirty stuff i usually just plug straight into the amp, but for metal i dont notice a difference if i go through my whole chain. (which works out to 17 pedals on my metal chain... only 5 are used for straight distortion with the other 12 turned off) with the distortion i dont really notice and tone loss/signal degradation if i plug straight into the amp or if i play through the whole chain.
also about the many tone knobs.. in my experience ive found that the last tone knob in the chain always wins.. say i have a CS-3 into a SD-1 into another DS-1. the CS-3 will be barely noticeable since theres so much distortion after it.. the SD-1 acts as a driver and its sole purpose is to add a bit of gain. the DS-1 will be the pedal that i set the "tone" knob to my liking.. know what i mean? |
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jack
Platinum Member
USA
1418 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 14:58:30
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| One issue I don't like about Multi-Effect units is that if one thing goes bad, pretty much the whole thing becomes useless. They are sort of like the TV-VCR combos they used to sell, where if the VCR went bad, the TV basically became useless, or if the TV went bad, the VCR was pretty much useless. The other thing to me is that I have heard multieffects do some things well, but they don't do everything well, like large Swiss Army knives, while its nice to have saw blade in your pocket knife, it'll pretty much be useless sawing anything over a certain size, and you just end up carrying crap you barely use, like on a large Swiss Army knife. |
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Dirk
Platinum Member
Netherlands
1309 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 17:34:50
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That's always been my excuse to not buying one as well.
There's just too much stuff cramped in there that you'll never use.
Better to invest in good quality pedals that you absolutely NEED in a live performance and taking the hassle of multiple adaptors, daisy chains and patch cords for granted.
Besides when you build a decent pedalboard all that hassle is gone too. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 19:40:14
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| i tried something in rehearsal last night that i hadn't tried before with the pod xt pro..i ran the output through the effect return of a marshall combo we use in our rehearsal room,with the fender coronado semi i have.... i used the pod on the acoustic sim setting with no cab and i can honestly say it was a great sound with this guitar(i've been listening to a lot of pat metheny lately)...theres a 200 watt stereo power amp in the small ad's for 50 euro so i'm gonna ring the guy and see if he still has it...i have a couple of celestions lying around the spare room so i might make a couple of 1x12 cabs out of some ply and rack all this shit together once and for all to see what sort of sound i can get out of it...worst case scenario is it will be a fairly reliable back up rig in case my valve amps all give up the ghost at the same time,i reckon i can't go far wrong for 50 lids and a bit of time making a couple of small cabs..i even have some spare wicker grillcloth like off the early boogies......... |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 11:16:57
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Hi FRANZONI & guys
I think I have mentioned this before
The POD series, excel into a PA with full range bins.
Second option, like you have dome, bypass the pre-amp & go straight into the main amp via the loop.
But still a poor second, as the open back & other cabs colour the sound too much.
I think you will do well with the twin channel PA & the Celestions, in separate boxes/mini bins.
But if you can afford a little more expense, get come Piezo rose or horn tweeters like the Motorola KSN or similar series.
This will make all the difference,
Essentially, you are building a full range PA.
Even better, & with more flexibility, build the tweeters or mid horns into separate smaller bins that you can place on top of the main Speakers.
And you can add them later as finances allow.
That way you have the option of not using them if they don't sound right on the night, at the venue or you just ant to dull it down a bit/lot.
See if you can try it into the bands main rig, as an experiment, next time you rehearse or play.
Well that's my 10 cents worth.
Hope it helps.
Regards Dr. Bob |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 11:47:41
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| Thanks Doc..... i've been threatening for a while to get a power amp for it to see if it made a difference..i was reading some posts on a steel pedal guitar forum where the people there had a lot of positive things to say about it...i was planning not on switching too much between different amps all the time but more pick an amp..for example a matchless chief or the marshall variac model for electric guitar and still use some of my boss pedals and the twin tube in the front end of the pod/amp(this is how line 6 recommend you use your 'stompboxes' with the pod)i have the dynacord in the switchable stereo effects loop and it does make life a whole lot easier,the only thing is my pedalboard is going to get a whole lot bigger if this works out like i plan...........the acoustic sim i have to say sounds great through even the piece of shit P.A. we use for rehearsing....i missed out on the power amp in the local small ads by 3 hours but the internet shop i normally get stuff out of have a good range of small power amps for less than 150 euro..it even might of been a bit of a blessing as what i've read up on power amps they shoud be 1.5/2 times more powerful than the continous handling power of the speakers.... maybe 300 watt amp pushing a couple of small P.A cabs might be the way to go,i don't need lots of power,this is more of a backline/monitor for myself as i can use the XLR connections to feed the main rig,..... thanks for the heads up on the speakers as there seems to be a lot of conflicting info out there in cyberland... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 02/08/2008 12:02:11 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 10:23:03
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| Just a quick update...i think i'm going to keep the pod for acoustic gigs as a preamp for my ovation and fender coranado semi and also for recording/rehearsal in the evenings...i did a A/B test the other evening with it going through the P.A against the marshall and my regular set up with the boss pedals..the clean sounds with the semi and the acoustic guitars were better than with the GE7...the GE7 sounded a bit harsher with the ovation(not my fav acoustic but it's all i have at the moment) the pod seeded to take the 'plastic' sound out of the ovation and give a bit more depth to the sound,it really shone with the coranado making it sound really full going from a beefed up strat or tele to a nice jazz guitar sound.... where it fell down IMHO was with the overdriven sounds.(strat)..they just don't have the depth of a real amp...and this wasn't just me,everyone was on agreement on this,they sound a bit too fizzy or 'papery' sounding,i don't want to get too nerdy on this but i read people saying things like 'not as 3D' etc and i think thats what i trying to get at it ...i don't really use a very overdriven type of sound anyway but when i do kick in the overdrive i like it to sound full so it looks like the amps will be staying for a bit longer for live work but i would have no problem recording with it or using the pod on acoustic gigs...... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 02/12/2008 10:27:46 |
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Tone Loss Finale
