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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
 Posted - 07/21/2009 : 09:11:44
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
quote:
Originally posted by applesforjonah
Digital is convenient, but analog has feel.
I don't agree.
I've never believed the equpiement anybody uses gives the music any feel.
The so called "feel" comes from your enjoyment of the music, your playing ability, and your mental state.
I think you missed what we're on about here. Were not speaking about playing ability or enjoyment at all here. Just the effect itself.
Equipment certainly will not add feeling to a dull piece of music that's played by someone who doesn't care about it.
The feel, in the sense it's mentioned here is the colour and texture an analogue effect will produce, compared to a digital 'synthesized' counterpart. |
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PaulH
Gold Member
535 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 15:26:52
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So...
I assume, in a double blind test, you'll hear if an effect (pedal or otherwise) is analogue or digital. |
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Leeroyfunk
Silver Member
United Kingdom
400 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 17:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
quote:
Originally posted by applesforjonah
Digital is convenient, but analog has feel.
I don't agree.
I've never believed the equipment anybody uses gives the music any feel.
The so called "feel" comes from your enjoyment of the music, your playing ability, and your mental state.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
So...
I assume, in a double blind test, you'll hear if an effect (pedal or otherwise) is analogue or digital.
+100 PaulH:
I'd be very interested to try out a truly scientific double-blind trial with some of these "analog purists"  .
I'm also convinced that this discussion is never truly about analog vs digital but actually pits old vs new:
- Despite the fact that ALL Boss overdrives are analog, it's widely held (on this forum and elsewhere) that the original, 2-knob OD-1 produces the best tone: Why? Because it's older.
- Despite the fact that they're all digital, it is widely held that the DD-2 or even DD-3 is the "warmest" or "most analog-like" of Boss delays: Do they mean warmer, more analog-like, or more lo-fi? Actually, they just mean they're older. Why do the same people who want high quality, hi-fidelity cabling and true bypass pedals to "preserve their tone" want to put lo-fi and grainy effects between the cables?
- In the late-80's/early-90's (before the internet) it was common to read interviews or reviews in guitar magazines where famous guitarists would talk about how they disliked the dry, sterile sound of "new" Boss pedals like the CE-2, and how they much preferred the warmer, more organic sound of the CE-1, or Jazz Chorus amp, or even the Univibe. Now, the CE-2 is talked about like it's the holy grail of analog chorus pedals: Warmer, more organic, you know the score...
- I'm certain that when analog ICs started to replace discrete tranistors in circuits in the early 70's, people moaned that the older trannies were better: Now seemingly analog chips are ok in vintage Tubescreamers, MXR D+s etc, but digital chips are not. I'm also fairly certain that when some Jazz cats first played through a Fuzzface in the mid-late 60's, they probably thought "What in God's name is that unholy racket?" not "Mmmmh, creamy analog goodness...": Now the Fuzzface is revered as the original, hyper-analog, oldest-is-best pedal.
There are several thing that digital can do that analog will never be able to replicate: Presets (e.g. the in DD-20), long delay times, looping, reverse looping, storing loops, polyphonic pitch-shifting (e.g. the EHX POG/HOG) not to mention fitting dozens of effects into a small box. Some digital pedals are crap, but lots of analog pedals are rubbish too - Doesn't mean one is better than the other.
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 17:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
So...
I assume, in a double blind test, you'll hear if an effect (pedal or otherwise) is analogue or digital.
Oh so were going down this road are we....
Blindfolded I could tell which pedal is analogue, it's year of manufacture, what type of battery is in it, how long the battery has been used for, what type of guitar's being used, what kind of pick ups it has, what position the pickup selector's in, the position of both the tone and volume controls, the type of cable used in the guitar and the thickness of the plectrum used.
Christ man, I was merely trying to point out that you hadn't understood. Don't go getting all prissy. |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 17:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Leeroyfunk
quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
quote:
Originally posted by applesforjonah
Digital is convenient, but analog has feel.
I don't agree.
I've never believed the equipment anybody uses gives the music any feel.
The so called "feel" comes from your enjoyment of the music, your playing ability, and your mental state.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulH
So...
I assume, in a double blind test, you'll hear if an effect (pedal or otherwise) is analogue or digital.
+100 PaulH:
I'd be very interested to try out a truly scientific double-blind trial with some of these "analog purists" .
I'm also convinced that this discussion is never truly about analog vs digital but actually pits old vs new:
- Despite the fact that ALL Boss overdrives are analog, it's widely held (on this forum and elsewhere) that the original, 2-knob OD-1 produces the best tone: Why? Because it's older.
- Despite the fact that they're all digital, it is widely held that the DD-2 or even DD-3 is the "warmest" or "most analog-like" of Boss delays: Do they mean warmer, more analog-like, or more lo-fi? Actually, they just mean they're older. Why do the same people who want high quality, hi-fidelity cabling and true bypass pedals to "preserve their tone" want to put lo-fi and grainy effects between the cables?
- In the late-80's/early-90's (before the internet) it was common to read interviews or reviews in guitar magazines where famous guitarists would talk about how they disliked the dry, sterile sound of "new" Boss pedals like the CE-2, and how they much preferred the warmer, more organic sound of the CE-1, or Jazz Chorus amp, or even the Univibe. Now, the CE-2 is talked about like it's the holy grail of analog chorus pedals: Warmer, more organic, you know the score...
- I'm certain that when analog ICs started to replace discrete tranistors in circuits in the early 70's, people moaned that the older trannies were better: Now seemingly analog chips are ok in vintage Tubescreamers, MXR D+s etc, but digital chips are not. I'm also fairly certain that when some Jazz cats first played through a Fuzzface in the mid-late 60's, they probably thought "What in God's name is that unholy racket?" not "Mmmmh, creamy analog goodness...": Now the Fuzzface is revered as the original, hyper-analog, oldest-is-best pedal.
There are several thing that digital can do that analog will never be able to replicate: Presets (e.g. the in DD-20), long delay times, looping, reverse looping, storing loops, polyphonic pitch-shifting (e.g. the EHX POG/HOG) not to mention fitting dozens of effects into a small box. Some digital pedals are crap, but lots of analog pedals are rubbish too - Doesn't mean one is better than the other.
It's not really about digital vs analogue. It's about using software vs actual pedals. I think I perhaps misused the word analogue in one of my earlier posts which I apologise for. My final statement probably should have read...
The feel, in the sense it's mentioned here is the colour and texture an old effect pedal will produce, compared to a 'synthesized' counterpart on a computer software package.
To suggest that among the people among this forum would think that a pedal would add feel to their playing is simply ludicrous. I give the forum members more credit than that.... |
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Leeroyfunk
Silver Member
United Kingdom
400 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 18:43:38
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quote:
Originally posted by DasBeef
Christ man, I was merely trying to point out that you hadn't understood. Don't go getting all prissy.
Woah, it's got heated pretty quick: No need for that to happen, we're only having a nerdy gear discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by DasBeef
I think I perhaps misused the word analogue in one of my earlier posts which I apologise for. My final statement probably should have read...
The feel, in the sense it's mentioned here is the colour and texture an old effect pedal will produce, compared to a 'synthesized' counterpart on a computer software package.
To suggest that among the people among this forum would think that a pedal would add feel to their playing is simply ludicrous. I give the forum members more credit than that....
I thought originally that PaulH had slightly misinterpreted the applesforjonah quote "Digital is convenient, but analogue has feel" - I understood it to mean "Computer fx are easy to summon up a sound quickly, but twiddling with knobs on a pedal is more fun than clicking and sliding with a mouse". From this point of view, I agree completely. But then you say:
quote:
The feel, in the sense it's mentioned here is the colour and texture an old effect pedal will produce, compared to a 'synthesized' counterpart on a computer software package.
I sure most people couldn't tell a computer sim analog chorus "colour and texture" from a real analog pedal in a blind test, played through a loud guitar amp: You certainly wouldn't hear the difference with the rest of the band playing.
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 18:56:20
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At the risk of stoking the fire even more.....
I've been "hacking" at guitar for 35 years and have had what seems to be vast amounts of gear over the years - from home-build transistor amps, to Alesis rackmount effects, to pedals of every conceivable type, to vintage Marshall amps, to modern reproduction amps, and the list goes on... some of the pieces have been modded, many have been stock. I've used many software packages including Cubase, Cakewalk, CoolEdit, and more. I've also designed my own pedals and amps, and written software for audio processing. Although I only use the knowledge for hobby purposes these days, I have an honours degree in Electrical Engineering.
So, having seen and used that much stuff, I have the personal observation that there is no substitute for a well maintained and tuned vintage amp and some good (probably vintage) effects pedals. My current rig has been simplified completely - it is down to my home-built HZD pedal into a Stormchaser modded MT-2 into a DD-2 into a modern Deluxe Electric Mistress into a JMP45 (ali-face) vintage Marshall.
Why does this sound better than any digital effects rig I've ever heard? (hardware or software)
I think there are two reasons:
- Simplicity. The signal is not overprocessed. Overprocessing can happen in either domain, but I think that because you can do so much in the digital domain, the tendency is to actually do too much to the signal. For example, my old Quadraverb GT had something like 7 or 8 effects blocks in series� It took an effort of will to turn 4 of them off and only use the couple that I really needed.
- Analogue signal path. The analogue circuits give genuinely imprecise response (rather than programmed emulation of imprecision), and have analogue voltage/power compression as an intrinsic property.
Together I think these make the rig more "forgiving", and more "human".
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Edited by - Laurie on 07/21/2009 18:58:14 |
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Leeroyfunk
Silver Member
United Kingdom
400 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:26:54
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Aha - But could you tell analog from digital in a blind trial?  |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:38:36
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honestly.... I think the whole "analoggood/digitalbad" thing is a bunch of psycho crap (at least if we're talking about good high quality digital stuff [good convertors, good code])... BUT I believe in this crap and it's okay.
I tried to like my new digital delay pedal.... just for the reason that it's really great and even has an analouge dry signal....
and NOW I just bought an analog delay again cuz my head says... nah.... don't use digital.... stupid? yes! do I give a fuck? not as long as I can afford it....
truth is digital is cheap, easy. super comfortable and sometimes GOOD... but for guitar I simply decided against it (for now)
it's all being converted to I's and O's anyway when I record my stuff but I think that's early enough.
(I actually thought about going back to my YAMAHA MT8X but am just too lazy)
I used Amplitube a lot and honestly really like it. Still I find that a miced amp has more... no not quality but individuality
and that's what I'm after....
HECK I just found THE reason to prefer anaolg stuff..... component and environment inconsistancies - you simply don't get this with digital
(sure you can model it [partially cuz CPU cost might get PRETTY high] but if digital is better than analog - why model analog behaviour)
art is a way of expressing yourself... and while your just a human like anybody else you might see the world a tiniest bit differently.
now if so why should I go and use preset number one from this and that plug-in if I can be a bit more - not creative, but individualistic and use second hand gear I hunted for on ebay thru a booteq amp I ordered in the states miced with a crazy mic I found on the flee market....
does it make my song a better song.... hell no
does it make my mix a better mix.... prolly the opposite
am I enjoying myself cuz I'm an elitist snob - YES I AM
hehe....
that was fun. |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Leeroyfunk
Aha - But could you tell analog from digital in a blind trial?
I reckon I could pick my favourite, most used pedals out from a sythesized simulated version.
I'm sure I could NOT with just any random pedal, and I'm sure I couldn't pick it out at all once it's in the mix with a full band.
quote:
Originally posted by Leeroyfunk
quote:
Originally posted by DasBeef
Christ man, I was merely trying to point out that you hadn't understood. Don't go getting all prissy.
Woah, it's got heated pretty quick: No need for that to happen, we're only having a nerdy gear discussion.
Sorry about that. I was merely pointing out earlier in the thread that something had been mis-interpreted, and I thought I had done it in a polite and civil manner, which would not cause insult or offense. I felt the return comment by PaulH was written in a snide manner towards myself, which was not warrated.
Totally agree with you. There's no need for that on this forum. |
Edited by - DasBeef on 07/21/2009 19:50:51 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:43:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Leeroyfunk
Aha - But could you tell analog from digital in a blind trial?
If the trial was listening to a recording of someone else and was between CE-2 emulated on DSP and a real CE-2, yeah, maybe/probably.
If the trial was actually playing through a CE-2 emulated on DSP and a real CE-2, definitely. There is no question in my mind.
Maybe that's the thing we've missed here... what perspective are we talking about? If it is listening to someone elses recording, it is going to be hard to tell.
Playing our own guitars through our own rigs is a very different psychological experience.
So what are the ground-rules for this discussion?   |
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DasBeef
Gold Member
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by MullyFX
am I enjoying myself cuz I'm an elitist snob - YES I AM
Ha ha ha ha ha! Don't say it out loud man!  |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 19:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DasBeef
quote:
Originally posted by MullyFX
am I enjoying myself cuz I'm an elitist snob - YES I AM
Ha ha ha ha ha! Don't say it out loud man!
I was aiming for "quote of the day" hehe |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 20:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Leeroyfunk
Aha - But could you tell analog from digital in a blind trial?
Defo with my real CE-2 compared to the simulation in my XTpro....
I've posted before about this...i use some of the patches in my XTpro for simplicity and the fact i couldn't justify buying anymore pedals for a couple of seconds every other song ..i.e the Univibe sound,a Flanger and a sim of the Phase 90 plus some delays analogue and digital.... the delays are very good sounding,so are the modulations but if your asking me if the Pod comes even close to a real phase 90 the answer is no....does it sound good ...yes.... as for the leslie sim i still use my old dynacord(analogue..before Midi...) rack unit in the stereo effects loop of the pod so i can easily compare it to the pod's sim of a leslie cab..there is no contest to the sound,the Dynacord CLS22 is heads and shoulders above the pods sim for this effect....so IMHO to sum up
For delays and reverbs digital is very good....
For modulation effects digital can be ok but not as rich sounding for my ears....
for simulating a valve amp or distortion/overdrive/fuzz... not even in the halfpenny place....
If something inspires you to play better and be more creative then it's helping to create feel.... so whatever floats your boat..... for me it's mainly Analogue with a sprinkling of Digital...
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Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/21/2009 20:15:14 |
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PaulH
Gold Member
535 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 23:37:35
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I never intended any snide remarks to anyone personally.
I just find all this analog v digital stuff annoying, and just made what I thought was a general comment about the double blind test.
I do use analogue pedals, digital pedals, and computer software.
Why... they produce the sounds I need or like.
Would I change from an analogue for digital?
Yes if it sounded better, or equally as good for less price.
I'd also change from digital to analogue for the same reasons.
I don't think one is better than the other. |
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Topic |
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Individual pedals versus computer effects
