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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
 Posted - 07/10/2007 : 17:38:06
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Has anyone managed to approach or duplicate the chorus sound of a CE-1 with any of the compact pedals that were manufactured after it?
It sounds to me, from listening to samples and studying the schematic, that the CE-1 has a fixed rate that's actually quite fast, perhaps even faster than that which can be attained with the rate adjustment on any from the CE-2 onwards, and that the intensity just adds depth to this fixed rate -- in other words, the rate adjustment for the CE-1's vibrato feature is only active in vibrato mode -- is this a correct assumption?
Would almost seem to me that a mod to speed the rate up might allow a more modern chorus pedal to emulate the CE-1 tone. I've noted that Robert Keeley offers a speed mod for the CE-2, but he seems to be steering this more towards a gimmick for creating weird sounds. Almost seems to me from listening to a CE-1 in use that a fast rate with minimal pitch shift that "width" (change in delay time?) is applied to is the key to getting the sound. One obvious reference here is the opening riff to "Message In A Bottle".
Is the CE-20's emulation of the CE-1 any good?
Anyone here even care about the chorus effect still? 
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 18:09:20
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welcome back.....been a while... i still like the chorus effect especially as you might recall in stereo...but the ch1 isn't really doing it for me anymore and i'm not too mad about cosm or digital modelling pedals....i've been thinking about the analogman stereo bi chorus which is a bit like the ce1/ce2 sound...i also like that early police/pretenders sort of sound...one of the other posters noted that on the synchronicity video(i noticed this as well)is that on a shot of andy summers pedalboard he's using a ce2....i think in his current rig he's using a red witch empress chorus pedal..... |
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 20:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
welcome back.....been a while... i still like the chorus effect especially as you might recall in stereo...but the ch1 isn't really doing it for me anymore and i'm not too mad about cosm or digital modelling pedals....i've been thinking about the analogman stereo bi chorus which is a bit like the ce1/ce2 sound...i also like that early police/pretenders sort of sound...one of the other posters noted that on the synchronicity video(i noticed this as well)is that on a shot of andy summers pedalboard he's using a ce2....i think in his current rig he's using a red witch empress chorus pedal.....
Thanks much... 
Have you heard of this one? I ran across it in my travels recently, but haven't actually seen one in person or tried it yet:
http://www.retro-sonic.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31
The CE-1 sound to me is reminiscent of the vocals under the guitar solo in "Octopus's Garden" -- the "watery" sort of vibrato that's mixed in with the dimensioning. It seems as though they shifted the chorus sound more towards the dimensioning aspect with successive models, whereas the CE-1 is using a sharper, faster modulation that has less pitch bending.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 22:50:49
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| can't say that i have,but the clips sound great... i checked out the phaser as well it's really lush sounding.... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/10/2007 22:52:02 |
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 05:20:11
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stahlhart...i see what you mean about the speed thing between the two pedals...i'm not too familiar with the ce1 except by what i've seen and heard on the 'net and in music books/mags etc.....but for my money it sounds a lot richer and more 'chorusy' than the ce2..if i remember correctly a few people on this forum have pointed out the ce2's more subtle nature before..a mod to change this to ce1 spec's would be a very cool thing indeed...!! you might end up like keeley or analogman with your own new pedal mods site.... Dr Bob is a big fan of the ce2 and he has a few of them he likes to run in tandem together for(i think) a tri stereo chorus type thing.....maybe he could help with this....but going on the clips you posted...the retro-sonic pedal sounds very good to me...unless you go down the road of aquiring an ce1...with the money/reliability factors that go with vintage gear.....gilmour had a ce2 modded a while ago according to reports into a stereo pedal by his long time pedalboard maker pete cornish..i wonder why boss/roland made the ce1 with two outputs and the ce2 with one and then went back to two again with the latter ones..i.e ce3,ce5,ch1 etc....??...as i've said before,for my money this effect sounds best in stereo...maybe boss thought the same..... |
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 06:51:34
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That's pretty much what I was thinking -- we've got all of these inexpensive CE-3s, and analog CE-5s and CH-1s, and CE-1s have gone through the roof... there's got to be a way to reverse-engineer the one-knob approach of the CE-1.
It seems to me that all it would take would be to change the character of the LFO, scope its waveform at the point it clocks the BBD and match that, and then measure the delay clocking and match that.
I would avoid messing with CE-2s, though -- prefer to keep them as they are. I doubt that the digital CH-1s and CE-5s are workable, also.
Going to study this in my spare time...
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ChristoMephisto
Platinum Member
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 15:31:35
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There is a mod, like you said for the ce-2 to increase the rate by swapping caps. The ce-3 and ch-1 have a rate mod that employs a pot to replace a resistor. Anyway to use a resistor in the ce-2 instead?
Are the ICs in the ce-1 the same delay range? Like the different ones in the bf-2 and hf-2. |
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 01:27:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ChristoMephisto
There is a mod, like you said for the ce-2 to increase the rate by swapping caps. The ce-3 and ch-1 have a rate mod that employs a pot to replace a resistor. Anyway to use a resistor in the ce-2 instead?
Are the ICs in the ce-1 the same delay range? Like the different ones in the bf-2 and hf-2.
It would take a bit of an understanding on my part of exactly how the LFOs in these work, because in addition to the frequency of the rate, the waveform is also going to be a factor in how the delay line is modulated. If you look at the CE-1 for example, it's sinusoidal for the vibrato function, but sawtooth for chorus.
It might get tricky if the actual LFO waveform needs to be tweaked, as that's essentially a redesign of the circuit, or at the very least more modification than simply adjusting timing with resistance and/or capacitance.
That's a good question about the delay lines -- I think that it has to do with the number of stages in them. I'm most familiar with the Reticon SAD-1024A, which has two 512-stage lines (they can either be used separately for stereo, or tied in series for a single 1,024 stage delay line). I wonder if the data sheets for the Matsushita line are out there anywhere, given that they're discontinued. It was easy to get it for the Reticon IC, as it was a stock item at Radio Shack at one time, and they stapled a copy of it to the blister pack, so there were tons of copies of it in circulation.
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 05:30:25
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Hi Stahlhart
Your quote:
I wonder if the data sheets for the Matsushita line are out there anywhere, given that they're discontinued.
I sent you a PM.
I have the:
MN3007 BBD and
MN3101 Clock-Driver datasheets, in PDF format.
As well as the:
MN3207
MN3102
And probably some others as well. 
If you want me to mail them to you?
Regards Dr. Bob  |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 19:19:23
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quote by stahlhart "I would avoid messing with CE-2s, though -- prefer to keep them as they are. I doubt that the digital CH-1s and CE-5s are workable, also."
i'm not as up on the electronic end of things as you guys,but wern't the early ch1's and ce 5's analog...? maybe they could be a inexpensive way of experimenting with this mod or what about other makes like dod..i had one of the early fx65 stereo chorus pedals and the sound of it wasn't that bad....in fact listening back to some of the tape recordings we did back in the day it sounds pretty good....that was back in the late 80's(when chorus was king)and it could get (if memory serves) very 'warbly'..the only thing i never liked about the digitech/dod effects was the hiss they produced even when off...but if you were going to mod this thing i'm sure it could be looked into at the same time......
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 19:32:52
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That's a really good point -- I hadn't even considered other pedal brands. It opens up even more possibilities.
Yes, I was referring to the early analog versions of the CE-5 and CH-1. I have not seen the schematics, but was assuming that the digital versions would have the modulation function buried in LSI and wouldn't be accessible for mods.
Seems to me that, out of the three, CE-3s are the most commonly available second hand, after the digital versions of the CE-5 and CH-1 are omitted. But other pedal manufacturers -- hmm...
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 13:26:30
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Hi stahlhart, Franzoni & guys.
I recently acquired an analog version of the CE-5.
I think I sent some Pics of the insides to Bossarea.
I may still have the pics on my hard drive, if others are interested.
I have never seen a schematic for the CE-5 either, nut I guess that these is one around somewhere on the net.
If get some time, I might be able to see what the clock waveforms look like, on the scope.
What is it specifically that you are looking for Stahlhart?
If I locate the pics, I PM you Stahlhart, if your interested, same with you Franzoni.
How's that Baby coming along?
Regards Dr. Bob
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RRV-10
Silver Member
Australia
246 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 14:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by stahlhart
It sounds to me, from listening to samples and studying the schematic, that the CE-1 has a fixed rate that's actually quite fast, perhaps even faster than that which can be attained with the rate adjustment on any from the CE-2 onwards, and that the intensity just adds depth to this fixed rate -- in other words, the rate adjustment for the CE-1's vibrato feature is only active in vibrato mode -- is this a correct assumption?
No, the intensity knob increases both the rate and depth of the chorus effect simultaneously. The LFO rate in chorus mode is rather slow - I don't have one to compare but from memory it is very similar to the speed of a stock CE-2. The CE-1 can get much deeper though. The Vibrato rate at it's slowest setting is identical to the Chorus rate at it's fastest. To me the Vibrato sounds like it is trying to cop the rotating speaker effect - it does well at mimicing George Harrison's leslie as someone mentioned earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by stahlhart
Would almost seem to me that a mod to speed the rate up might allow a more modern chorus pedal to emulate the CE-1 tone.
I think this is the wrong line of pursuit. The CE-1 chorus LFO speed is pretty much identical to the CE-2. Heck, every chorus pedal I've ever tried has been able to warble at the same rate. It's tone probably has more to do with impedance, the input circuit and the old MN3002 BBD chip than the LFO speed. The CE-2 used a MN3005 I think, and the CE-3 a MN3207, they don't have internal preamps, they were designed with a high impedance guitar signal in mind etc.
quote:
Originally posted by stahlhart
Has anyone managed to approach or duplicate the chorus sound of a CE-1 with any of the compact pedals that were manufactured after it?
I've heard people say the Ibanez RC-99 Rotary Chorus sounds very similar to a CE-1, or as close as anything else has come. |
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 17:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by RRV-10
No, the intensity knob increases both the rate and depth of the chorus effect simultaneously. The LFO rate in chorus mode is rather slow - I don't have one to compare but from memory it is very similar to the speed of a stock CE-2. The CE-1 can get much deeper though. The Vibrato rate at it's slowest setting is identical to the Chorus rate at it's fastest. To me the Vibrato sounds like it is trying to cop the rotating speaker effect - it does well at mimicing George Harrison's leslie as someone mentioned earlier.
I think this is the wrong line of pursuit. The CE-1 chorus LFO speed is pretty much identical to the CE-2. Heck, every chorus pedal I've ever tried has been able to warble at the same rate. It's tone probably has more to do with impedance, the input circuit and the old MN3002 BBD chip than the LFO speed. The CE-2 used a MN3005 I think, and the CE-3 a MN3207, they don't have internal preamps, they were designed with a high impedance guitar signal in mind etc.
I've heard people say the Ibanez RC-99 Rotary Chorus sounds very similar to a CE-1, or as close as anything else has come.
Okay, I guess I won't waste any time on it then.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 17:50:48
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Hello all...the reviews on harmony central for the ibanez rc 99 are very positive sounds like a great chorus pedal if you can get your hands on one....i checked out ebay none there.....
Dr Bob.....what do you think of the ce5 compared to the other boss chorus you have.... have you tried it in stereo.....?
little franzoni should be along any day now..the 25th was the projected date but the (other) doc reckons any day now....
good thread stahlhart...it's nice to see i'm not the only sad ol' 80's chorus buff here..... looks like there's a few of us out there still...don't know why it got such a bad rep over the last few years,like any effect if you over use it,it becomes boring.....
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Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/13/2007 17:51:41 |
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CE-1 Sound w/Compact Pedal?
