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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2008 : 16:50:18
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please hear me out on this one before you post anything.
i completely understand what both do. i completely understand why both are desirable to have on at times (either independently, or both). i know lots of people use them a lot... and have used them a lot.
what i can't seem to get to the bottom of...
i've owned about 15 compressors and about 15 delay pedals/rack units and what i've never been able to get past... is that every version i've had of both effects has changed my tone so significantly from my dry tone that i've never been happy with any of them beyond attempting to duplicate another guitarist's tone for a cover, or some form of lead boost/cut value during a solo.
i guess the question i would have for people that use a lot of compression or a lot of delay...
did you dial in your tone with your guitar/amp and then add delay (or compression) to it? or was your guitar/amp setup compensated for using it?
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 19:25:05
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Set up my basic tone and then add in the effects.. .i like delay and never found it to add anything bad to my tone.....compression is harder to use and get a good sound with,i heard it described as a 'black art'..i've had several different compressors over the years..Aria,DOD,Digitech, the one in my PODXT PRO and now Boss..i use the CS-3 mostly as a clean boost,the compression level is between 1/4 and 1/2 way with the level up 3/4 and the attack up full...tone at 1/2 mainly for clean solos,chicken pickin' etc..not all the time on on chords...i find it good with a bit of chorus and delay for andy summers type arpeggios as well as pushing the crunch channel on my twin tube overdrive for a different lead sound to the lead channel..it makes it more 'spanky' less mids...if you know what i mean....one other thing i should add.i use a fairly clean tone with my amps,pushing a valve amp brings in it's own natural compression,i have one old amp(selmer stadium 15 watt) with a valve rectifer that has enough natural compression going on without the CS-3,all turning this on does is send the amp into overdrive with a squashy sound...works best with my musicman combo,not bad with the marshall superbass head,not needed with the selmer......the musicman is a super clean sounding amp with a solid state preamp section and valve output section so that might have something to do with it... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/24/2008 19:30:55 |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 00:48:47
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I find that the LM-2 is pretty colorless.... though it's not really a compressor....
I love my CS-1 for its color though |
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Big Boss Man
Gold Member
USA
564 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 01:14:04
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| I mostly only use compression with a clean guitar tone and my favorite Boss pedal for that is the LM-2. It is very subtle and transparent. I do not really need to make any major adjustments to my amp for this pedal. Many other compressors have a much more pronounced effect. That is just part of their sound. Maybe compression is not your thing? |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 08:29:14
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i am fine with using compression for specific parts of specific songs lead boosts, solos, etc... what throws me is when it gets used like... a lot...
i know a lot of it is due to my mostly playing high output humbuckers (nothing insane, 14k or lower for alnico V magnet, 13k or lower for ceramic magnet) and mostly playing from the bridge position that the effect colors the tone a lot more than other situations (e.g. single coils from the neck position).
what i've never considered doing is using it a lot as every compressor i've owned seemed to significantly color the signal even when its settings were very mild.
the same goes for delay... i've never found one transparent enough for me to ever want to sacrifice my sound for it... |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 12:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by zentropa
i am fine with using compression for specific parts of specific songs lead boosts, solos, etc... what throws me is when it gets used like... a lot...
i know a lot of it is due to my mostly playing high output humbuckers (nothing insane, 14k or lower for alnico V magnet, 13k or lower for ceramic magnet) and mostly playing from the bridge position that the effect colors the tone a lot more than other situations (e.g. single coils from the neck position).
what i've never considered doing is using it a lot as every compressor i've owned seemed to significantly color the signal even when its settings were very mild.
the same goes for delay... i've never found one transparent enough for me to ever want to sacrifice my sound for it...
I think your right about the humbuckers also high output active guitars..compression is more suited to passive single coil guitars or maybe something with P90's IMHO...i never use the compressor when i'm using the SG 2000s as it squashes to dynamic range of the guitars natural sound,guitars like this or les pauls were built to sustain naturally anyway .i mostly use fenders for most stuff so it's not a problem for me...delay/echo/reverb is a big part of my sound... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/25/2008 12:54:29 |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 19:42:40
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well that settles my compression issue.
still tryin to get to the bottom of the delay sound.
using a DM-3 right now and it just seems to murder the dynamics of the guitar. not as bad as the bright cheese grater that is many digital delays... but it's those two things that make me question how people use so much delay on a lot of things.
i can understand when people are goin for like the U2 sound... but in other cases... |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2008 : 00:26:53
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I like it for a lot of stuff..slapback echo for the country/rockabilly stuff,or to give the solos a bit of something extra like Eric Johnson,Jeff Beck etc... the singer likes Chris Issak and his early stuff has a lot of echo and reverb on it ala James Wilsey also Danny Gatton got some good sounds with a bit of delay on his guitar......i'm not an expert with the electronic side of things but didn't Dr Bob post a while back about the older boss pedals having a different impedance...if your using a high output guitar(i think i remember you posting something about using a 'shred' type guitar these days recovering from an injury) it might be part of the problem... i nearly got my hands on a DM-3 a couple of years ago.... but the search for an analogue echo led my back to revisiting my pod xt pro which has worked out pretty sweet at the moment..... |
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visserman
Platinum Member
1072 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 15:40:46
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Zen, you say you play a lot from the bridge postion and with high-output humbucks.
Well playing from the bridge postion will give you a compressed sound naturally [especially when you use a pick], on any type of guitar regardless of the effect you are using. Playing in that part of the guitar will make your sound very bright. My guess is you like it there because you are using humbucks--by using this techinque you create natural brightness to your sound--.
Now this is where my compressors kick in: They will add that tiny bit of brightness and shine which you can only hear when you kick the compressor on and off. It is a very subtle sound. YEs I still find myself switching it off from time to time to see what it actually does to my sound.
None of the Boss compressors are good for that sound, they colour way too much, even the LM-2, [I like all the them, but they alter your sound very much]. I like the Apex punch factor a lot, does also have a great volumeboost, then there is the Korg limiter which a great little gem, not much volumeboost on this one though.
I tend to use compression all the time on bass and guitar.
Using delay all the time? Well that is another matter, you could if you set up your delay as a reverb, but then using reverb all the time may not be good.
Still to this day I prefer distorted and overdriven sounds to be reverb- and delay free. Why? Because it makes the sound of the dist. and overdrive so much stronger and fuller. A bonedry dist. sounds more angry and natural. The reverb plays around with its tone, and it is almost like it is telling the dist. another story. Well I leave that other story for the clean sound.
Clean is a totally different matter---the reverb and delay will just create more space, but does not take away from the overal quality of the sound.
I can see your point of using any of those effects for certain parts but not feeling comfortable with using them all the time. Perhaps it has to do with your style of playing or the overal sounds you like and go for.
Do the pick-ups have a lot to do with it? No, I guess the playing style is more what does it. |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 18:08:49
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quote:
Well playing from the bridge postion will give you a compressed sound naturally [especially when you use a pick], on any type of guitar regardless of the effect you are using. Playing in that part of the guitar will make your sound very bright. My guess is you like it there because you are using humbucks--by using this techinque you create natural brightness to your sound--.
well... lately my 2 main guitars (the ones that i can play without pain) both only have 1 pickup and they also happen to be super distortions.
i move my picking/strumming area around in order to achieve the dynamics and tone i want for a given part. i also do a lot of muting both palm muting to help clean up stuff when there's a lot of gain and between riffs.
quote:
None of the Boss compressors are good for that sound, they colour way too much, even the LM-2, [I like all the them, but they alter your sound very much]. I like the Apex punch factor a lot, does also have a great volumeboost, then there is the Korg limiter which a great little gem, not much volumeboost on this one though.
i'll have to look into some options. i tend to lose a lot of dynamics in a way that bugs me hehe... but also i've never really liked using compressors beyond lead boosts even when i was in my strat era. nowadays i use a CE-2 for chorus definition.
as for delay... i prefer delay free like... all the time hehe. when clean i like to do a lot of faster picking 6/8 time signature counterpoint type stuff. delay tends to "eat" the cleanliness of the notes that i worked very hard to perfect in my picking technique.
the sounds that puzzle me most are from 80's metal. not my genre of choice but what i have been using to rehab my hand. seems like a lot of those guitarists used loads of reverb and delay on the primary riffs of songs... and i find i'm unable to duplicate a decent tone when i gunk it up that much. but i'm also guessing a lot of that has to do with volume.
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BluesDriveMonster
Copper Member
32 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 00:09:21
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All my pedals are based on my already set amp. So they might sound awful through another rig, but sound great to me.
This wasn't necessarily a though process, I just go the amp and eq's it so I liked it clean. From there I added pedals. With most of my pedals I do unity gain, they're output is the same as my guitar's level. This goes for comp/delay too. |
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visserman
Platinum Member
1072 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 19:37:37
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Zentropa,
My guess is that a lot of the 80s Metal was recorded in not very high volume situations.
When recording you can just play parts and for little parts [or even a whole chordsequence using powerchords] you can get away with using reverb or delay, as the rest of the recording will make those parts less "awfull".
Delay works very sweet when you play something and then mute, and let the delay take over to play the part back, but this is not something you would find often in heavey rock or metal.
In a way the gear you use is not really important [how often you hear people mention this eh?] what really matters is to have a vision before you play, and knowing how to recreate those sounds. I find with that frame of mind I hardly get disappointed about my tone.
What I do find frustating is to have so many soundoptions available but only to be able to play one song at a time, and often that one song may only need one or two sounds. Because of this reason I have found myself working on all kinds of styles from very early on during my introduction to music and the guitar. It takes a lifetime to master all these aspects and often you find that a lot of folks are only good at a few things really, because of their taste and their experience.
Keep on digging and searching and enjoy the journey!! |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 23:56:35
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visser:
can you name a few bands where you think they were playing low volume? nothin is really jumpin out at me right now.
there's times where it's obviously a guitar w/ a JB playing through an MP1... but there's other times where it's an EMG through something actually cranked. other times it's actually stuff that yields some good tone :P
what i'm guessing on a lot of it is that a lot of the effects were most likely added in post production. keep in mind i don't have a lot of tone envy for that era.
i'm generally very happy with my tone and the bands from that era that i thought had decent tone i can pull off. e.g. EVH brown sound, judas priest, iron maiden, slash, etc.
it was the later 80's swill that i can't seem to nail hehe. i guess i shouldn't feel too bad about that, but there's a few of those songs i'm using as fretboard gymnastics to get my hand back in shape and it caught my attention that i couldn't duplicate their sound hehe.
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pedals 4 pv
Platinum Member
Canada
1351 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 02:49:38
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I find that pedal placement and the type of amplifier used are two factors that have to be considered in this discussion, as they can affect the tone just as much as pickup type or even type of guitar. The difference between using a compressor on a tube amp vis a vis a solidstate amp is huge. I have also found that I get better results with delay and reverberation effects in the effects loop of the amp. With the delay after the pre-amp, the EQ and distortion of the amp don't affect the wet signal from the delay, the effect just delays the original signal from the pre-amp. In response to your question, zentropa, with the delay in the loop, I dial the tone of the amp first then set the delay or reverb to get the final sound. The compressor is another matter. An adjustment of the compressor will change the way that most of the other pedals in the chain sound, so finding a best setting can be frustrating. I generally set it up for a good tone with the amp on the clean channel first then adjust the distortion channel to suit. |
Edited by - pedals 4 pv on 07/29/2008 02:59:44 |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 08:25:44
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good thing i don't use delay or compression much.
just snagged these in a trade really cheap today.
heh.
watch for my DM-3 on the for sale section soon :P |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 10:05:01
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Hi Zentropa
Congrats
CS-2 & DM-2.... Things of sonic beauty.
Regards Dr. Bob |
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Topic |
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Compression, delay, hrm...
