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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2006 : 16:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunburst
Actually, I dont see your point really. The example youre offering is of a reissue pedal, not an original vintage pedal. Reissue pedals are however just what the name says, and to a collector they are just...reissues.
Therefore the collectors market and users market are separate as with reissue guitars, and will be separate when it comes to expensive vintage Boss pedals in the future.
Those who cant afford the real deal but want the sound buy the reissue, while collectors concentrate on the vintage gear and therefore both markets exists.
quote:
Originally posted by Goran
I think Sunburst has a point here, there are two different markets. With vintage guitars it�s very clear, if I want a good telecaster to perform with, I�m not buying a 1952 original for $30.000, I�ll go for the reissue at $2000 (or so).
But if I�m a collector I don�t want the reissue even if it�s a much better guitar.
The same goes for pedals, why spend $250 or something for a pedal that have been used for years when I can get a brand new and probably better (or at least more reliable) for half the amount?
Okay -- let's try this one more time, and then I'm done discussing it.
Yes, this is a reissued pedal. I know that.
It has a suggested retail price of $400.00.
Do you honestly believe that Maxon's mass-production manufacturing costs for technology this dated and obsolete justifies them charging this much for it?
Or do you think that perhaps they decided to sell them for this amount because they saw what collectors had driven the cost of used analog delays on the street to, and felt that they could get away with it?
Now, do you still think it's two separate markets?
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
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Sunburst
Silver Member
427 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 17:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by stahlhart
quote:
Originally posted by Sunburst
Actually, I dont see your point really. The example youre offering is of a reissue pedal, not an original vintage pedal. Reissue pedals are however just what the name says, and to a collector they are just...reissues.
Therefore the collectors market and users market are separate as with reissue guitars, and will be separate when it comes to expensive vintage Boss pedals in the future.
Those who cant afford the real deal but want the sound buy the reissue, while collectors concentrate on the vintage gear and therefore both markets exists.
quote:
Originally posted by Goran
I think Sunburst has a point here, there are two different markets. With vintage guitars it�s very clear, if I want a good telecaster to perform with, I�m not buying a 1952 original for $30.000, I�ll go for the reissue at $2000 (or so).
But if I�m a collector I don�t want the reissue even if it�s a much better guitar.
The same goes for pedals, why spend $250 or something for a pedal that have been used for years when I can get a brand new and probably better (or at least more reliable) for half the amount?
Okay -- let's try this one more time, and then I'm done discussing it.
Yes, this is a reissued pedal. I know that.
It has a suggested retail price of $400.00.
Do you honestly believe that Maxon's mass-production manufacturing costs for technology this dated and obsolete justifies them charging this much for it?
Or do you think that perhaps they decided to sell them for this amount because they saw what collectors had driven the cost of used analog delays on the street to, and felt that they could get away with it?
Now, do you still think it's two separate markets?
Judging by your reasoning in this thread you sound more like you are a regular pedal user than a die hard collector and thats fine with me.
I am more of a collector than a regular user and YES, I still believe in a collectors market, separete from the regular users market.
I have no opinion on wheter its good or bad that the collectors market perhaps sometimes drive up the prices on reissues of popular pedals on the user market.
As a collector I only know that Im not interested in reissues, no matter how much or little they might cost. I want the real thing, and thats it.
However, I respect your opinion and your frustration about the price issue. I hope you respect my opinion on this matter aswell.
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Edited by - Sunburst on 08/16/2006 17:18:57 |
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stahlhart
Platinum Member
1318 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 17:20:33
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Also -- guitars and electronic products are an apples and oranges comparison. Hand-assembled low volume versus automated mass production, completely different economies of scale. And we were only discussing analog delay pedals here.
edit:
For the most part, yeah, there are separate markets, but in this particular instance it's pretty apparent that mojo is being used to artifically jack the asking price up -- and that same mojo is what's driving up the price of the DM-2 and DM-3. When you see no-name analog delay pedals for around $30.00, and you see the cost of the circuits above, it's pretty clear that the markup is artificial. Thankfully it seems to be confined to this one unit.
I just think that much of the hype and mythology surrounding these is ridiculous -- and probably largely parroted and propogated by guys who don't even have a gig. Unless someone was doing something like dinking with regeneration to create weird noises, probably no one would ever hear the difference in a live performance situation, and I doubt that they even would in a studio recording.
I didn't mean to come across as argumentative, Sun, and I apologize if I did -- I have no quarrels with supply, demand and rarity and where an honest market puts the prices of stuff; it's the practice of prices getting hyped up from greed and cyber-bragging that I get annoyed...
Okay, now I'm finished...
/must have caught it from Stratosphere
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Edited by - stahlhart on 08/16/2006 19:02:18 |
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jack
Platinum Member
USA
1418 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 17:42:11
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I just want to say that I feel that there definitely is a players market and a collectors market, but they both overlap with each other and fuel each other. And as far as the prices between vintage and re-issue, its like real estate. If there is new construction going on down the road, oftentimes your house will increase in value even though its older because of the new attention or revitalizing that is being brought to the area. If there are re-issues being made, your vintage original increases in value cause it points out how great the original was, and re-issuing brings more attention back to the originals. This in turn jacks up the price of the originals, but the the re-issue maker sees that people are willing to pay up to, lets say $350 for the original, so they figure, we can up our price now to $300, and people will pay a bit less for something new, than a bit more for something used. And people just keep seeing how far they can push it till the bubble bursts, and even though it seems that there is no limit in sight, what goes up must come down at some point...
Seriously, before Nirvana, did anyone really forsee re-issues of Mustangs and Jazzmasters? There was so much demand for those guitars in the vintage and players market that Fender realized they could capitalize making a re-issue of it. The vintage market and the reissue market need each other. The players market needs the collectors market as well. If players didn't go after all the Mustangs and Jazzmasters in pawn shops after Nirvana and Sonic Youth, the collectors would not have a guitar that was worth a lot, because original Mustangs and Jazzmasters would have been more available. Cause lets face it, before those bands and others, Mustangs and Jazzmasters were considered to be the freaky siblings of the Fender family to most people. Sorry for the long rant...So as a player, yes it is annoying, but I have realized I will only pay so much for a name if I can get the same thing, though maybe under a different name, elsewhere. |
Edited by - jack on 08/16/2006 17:45:22 |
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starr36
Platinum Member
Canada
1172 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 05:04:04
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I like to keep it simple.
I just don't see the $325 in value for a 300ms delay pedal.
COLLECTOR's can you enlighten me on this?
JM |
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jack
Platinum Member
USA
1418 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 05:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by starr36
I like to keep it simple.
I just don't see the $325 in value for a 300ms delay pedal.
COLLECTOR's can you enlighten me on this?
JM
Exactly, thats why I am learning how to solder so I can just get a delay kit for $75 to just play around with a 300ms delay as opposed to paying a half months rent on a pedal I just wanted to play around and experiment with. |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 07:21:54
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A vintage DM-2 for $300+ is really something compared to a $300+ stamp, I rather collect Boss pedals than stamps as you actually can use the pedal. Men are collectors by nature, my wife says that...
I certainly agree that reissue pedals, like the RI TS808, is way overpriced. |
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Sunburst
Silver Member
427 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 08:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by starr36
I like to keep it simple.
I just don't see the $325 in value for a 300ms delay pedal.
COLLECTOR's can you enlighten me on this?
JM
Its not just that there are more advanced delay pedals for less money...
To a collector its the whole concept of a vintage Boss DM-2, and what that stands for. Supply and demand is the final ruler on the value of the pedal. Not how many millisec delay it has.
As a player you compare what you get for your money.
A collector is interested in the concept of a vintage early 80�s DM-2, the sound, the original box and manual and enjoying the satisfaction of owning it. A collector doesnt care how many milliseconds of delay money can buy. |
Edited by - Sunburst on 08/17/2006 09:02:09 |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 09:39:21
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If I was gigging plenty I would certainly not bring my pristine DM-2 with me, I would for sure use a reissue of some sort, even if it cost the same amount of money that I paid for the DM-2. Regarding pedals I act in two different areas, as a collector and as a player.
If I had owned a 1954 strat and it had been the best guitar in my collection I wouldn�t be so stupid bringing it to the local pub gig, I would of course use a non-collectable strat.
In my book there�s nothing wrong with collecting, or playing. Two different things that sometimes overlaps.
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starr36
Platinum Member
Canada
1172 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2006 : 00:47:46
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OK, those perspectives clear things up nicely for me. Ultimately, what price can you put on "satisfaction of ownership" for something now 25 years old, and not replaceable; so to speak, in the original context.
OK, i'm good with that! |
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DM-2 - big money
