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axewinner
Copper Member
USA
43 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2005 : 00:50:18
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Occasionally see a pedal with the older "Black Label" Any difference in sound from the new Silver Labels?
The OC-2 Black Label sounds way better than an OC-2 Silver, but don't know if this is in general or just these two pedals.
Seems to be no difference on the Black Label DS-1! from the 3 other DS-1's that are around here.
What do the BOSSarea readers think?
axewiz
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boss freak
Gold Member
USA
663 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 02:28:16
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| I thnk it varies between models, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a small difference in improved audio quality in the black label Taiwanese pedals, since these are the earliest MIT versions and the components are probably very close to the MIJ versions. I think as time has passed, the use of cheaper components (in order to keep pedals affordable) has made the various models suffer in quality, but this is purely speculation on my part. |
Edited by - boss freak on 09/11/2005 02:28:32 |
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bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 19:25:47
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Sometimes there's a difference but whether it's for the better or worse is up to the individual listener.
quote:
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/en/compact/
Only the very best components and circuitry are used in BOSS pedals.
No corners are cut, no compromises are made � these pedals are built to sound great and take a pounding.
Not sure if the above is true though. As a manufacturer you're bound to say this anyway but I do believe that Boss actually has a quality control and doesn't use bad quality parts. I may be naive but they have a good rep so why risk it. The component cost is probably less than 1% of the pedal price anyway. |
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boss freak
Gold Member
USA
663 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 20:29:52
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This is probably a huge can of worms we're opening here.
Yes, it's true that they are probably compelled to make a statement like this for public relations reasons, but I do believe it to an extent. They have no reason to cut corners from a sales point of view. They've always used 5% tolerance resistors, etc. to the best of my knowledge. You have a good point in saying that they can probably manufacture pedals for a very small percentage of the wholesale price, but considering how many modders there are out there that are making arguably better choices in components in Boss pedals (Keeley, Analogman, etc.), it seems like Boss could/should make improvements in their products so that some of these mods aren't even necessary. Maybe it would do them some good to bring in someone such as Keeley as a consultant to make honest improvements in their line. Maybe they would have a slightly higher price point, but a 10% increase or so in retail price (on truly improved products) probably wouldn't hurt their sales.
Don't get me wrong. I love Boss pedals, as some forumites are probably well aware by now, but I do have a good percentage of my pedals modded and they sound even better than they did stock (obviously this is my own opinion only and not a statement of general fact).
And who knows? Maybe Boss does have someone reading this forum to see what the die-hard Boss users are saying.  |
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arcanon1313
Silver Member
USA
414 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 21:23:28
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Let's hope that Boss has someone reading this forum! If their smart they would use this forum as a kind of "think-tank" of their products, and figure out what the customer want's insted of what the company heads want. Just an idea. |
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bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 23:58:43
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Yes, it is a huge can of worms and my ears aren't that good so I really shouldn't make a comment... but I can't resist
There is a lot of people making modifications out there. Most of these mods are of course changes to the original cicuits and these makes sense. They change the sound of the pedal, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. I know that there are a few mods where they've just changed some components for higher quality components. I haven't heard any of these pedals but I have a hard time believing that there is much of a quality improvment.
Metal film resistors will generate a little less noise and changing the coupling caps with the best polyester types may bring some extra clarity but with any sort of distortion dialled in I think it will disappear completely. The component tolerances are usually of no importance. If the components forms the DC voltages for a transistor then it is a little more important but for the most parts they will just change the cut-off frequency for a filter a little. Often way outside the audible spectre. |
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boss freak
Gold Member
USA
663 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 01:37:08
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Again, some good points.
I don't really know if the mods I have or have done are necessarily "better" than the stock pedals either, but they are different to say the least. Changing a few components for different types of overdrive/distorion flavors, rate adjustments on modulation effects, etc. is actually fun when it works out right, so I guess the stock pedals suit me fine. Hell, they were always good enough before I got into modifications anyway. Maybe it's just the interest in being able to make sounds and tones come out of these cool little boxes that other people can't achieve with an unmodified pedal that leads me towards the modded versions.
On the other hand, it's kind of the consensus among some of us here on the bossarea forum that so-called "improved" versions of some Boss pedals are actually steps backwards... or at least sideways, for whatever reason. Is it because we've simply come to know and love the old favorites and need time to gradually come to feel the same about the newer versions?
I don't know... I think component quality is too broad a topic, even within any given model's production history, for us as users (not engineers) to make an authoritative claim on better/lesser quality parts over the span of the production of any Boss pedal, aside from what our ears can tell us. Is "more expensive" necessarily a synonymous term for "better"? Hmmm...
It seems like it all boils down to the individual making comparisons and drawing their own conclusions. A/B comparing several examples of a particular model when making a purchase, whenever possible of course, appears to be the best route to take before making a final personal decision.
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arcanon1313
Silver Member
USA
414 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 02:01:50
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| WOW! I applaud both Bossaera, and Boss Freak for their views and opinons. I think the both of you have nailed it right on the head, and everything you two said (at least in my mind) is valid and to the point (Including the Mod issue). while I do agree that maybe they should bring in someone like Keeley, or even Stinkfoot (for the europeian market) I doubt they will. The pedal designers feel that they have a good grip on the pedal line as it is, and feel (at least to me) that the COSM thing is the way of the future of effects. I don't think they really want to visit the past, but if enough of us start requesting the old line of pedals, built the same as the old (no COSM) maybe just maybe they might listen to us. Just a thought. |
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axewinner
Copper Member
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 04:17:10
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LOVE the COSM design of the OD-20 (by the way, price fluctuations as always, right now they are too cheap on ebay, good time to pick one up), it's just an awesome twin pedal!
But back to point. Is there a difference on price point for black labels? I know when I get one, I'll keep it at least for the cool factor, over the newer labeled CE silver labels. |
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bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 10:32:37
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Another thing about component quality is that we are today able to make components with much higher quality than they were in the 70s. We have cleaner material of which to produce the components and the machines that makes them work with higher precision and make a smaller percantage of errors. Now the higher precision enables us to minimize components and cram in more transistors than ever before in DSP chips. That's not necessarily good for sound quality. The copper layers become thinner and leads thinner than a hair strand can lead to losses. If we're still creating a component like the well known 4558 opamp I would expect today's circuit to be of better quality than the 1980s counterpart.
I don't think that COSM really is the future. New music has always gone hand in hand with new sounds. COSM will only emulate the units that are already on the market so to get the new sounds needed for the 2010 mega hits, new equipment is needed.
That's the theory. The hits will probably be made using guitars designed in the 50s and amps made in the 60s for years to come  |
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boss freak
Gold Member
USA
663 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 11:23:47
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And pedals from the late-70s and the 80s!!!  |
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bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 12:46:46
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| definitely |
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arcanon1313
Silver Member
USA
414 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 19:30:36
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| agreed |
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axewinner
Copper Member
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2005 : 21:43:07
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| Opened up a black label GE-7, mit, and everything inside is mij! After the move to the RTC factory in 1986 (per the boss book) they kept the black label and changed it to say mit. Looks like final assembly was all that was done in taiwan!!! Point of this post, THANK YOU bossarea, would never of known to look inside at the PCB without this site!!!!! |
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Goran
Double Platinum Member
Sweden
2203 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2005 : 09:10:11
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Is it possible to estimate what years a specific type of label was used? Have any of you any theories/thoughts about this?
As we all know there are quite a few around..... and I�m sure the Boss book missed a few of them.
In some topic here someone notified me about the "coin"-sticker used on thumbscrew-pedals, I checked my pedals and sure there were some. Very interesting...
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Edited by - Goran on 09/19/2005 09:13:07 |
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bossarea
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
3652 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2005 : 16:01:07
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I have been thinking about this. There is some overlap but the label colours appears to have gone through the following:
Black - Blue - Pink - Green - Silver - Dark Gray
The first 4 are availbale as both MIJ and MIT while the last 2 are only MIT. The black label comes in several shapes. There's the coin/finger text and the ones where Made in Japan was on a sticker instead of printed on the label. I think there is a difference in the wording of "Product of Roland" as well.
Assigning years to labels is the hardest part. Black from 78 to 86 but after that I don't really know.
There's some wackyness with red and orange labels that I don't know how fit in too. |
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Black Label - ANY DIFFERENCE?
