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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2008 : 13:43:42
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Hi all
I wasn't sure how to title this topic so i hope it's not too misleading....!! the question i have is does any of you notice any affect on your analogue gear when running them into digital ones.....i have been on the look out for a reverb and the majority are digital,i have a pod xt pro lying idle with the added bonus of have a switchable effects loop so i could keep a dynacord cls22(speaker simulator) in and out of my signal chain as needed,the dynacord is analogue but it affects you signal even when in bypass making it a bit too midrangy,so this could kill two birds with one stone...i've tried this before and i noticed when linked like this the dynacord in the slow setting loses a little of it's univibe thing and becomes more CE2ish/chorusy sounding,now i don't have a major problem with this it's just since i got my CE-2 this area is well covered... and does anyone think that putting the pedalboard in the front end of the pod(or any make of digital reverb unit..alesis.lexicon etc) and the then to the amp will drastically alter the sound of my CE-2 and other pedals....i'm not exactly sure what all these A/DA converters do...i think i read somewhere it's a language that the micro processor in the digital unit understands...so where does that leave the BBD sound frond my analogue gear....???..............i'm old skool when it comes to gear but i'm also open to new ideas...!!!!..... BTW i'm using the POD in bypass mode just as a effects processor/reverb unit.....i just can't get the feeling that i'm not using this processor to it's best,and a lot of the reviews i get about the alesis/lexicon/digitech stuff is that it's noisy(i've had a lot of dod/digitech stuff in the past and they added a lot of hiss to the signal).....i have to say that the POD is quiet in that respect.....
any input or experiences with mixing pedals and rack units in a live setting,or any other ideas........ welcome.............. |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2008 : 14:25:04
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Hi FRANZONI
That's one REALLY LONG  question.
And it deserve a really long answer.
I've been thinking about it for a while now, while practicing a new finger picking song, I've been trying to put together.
Finger picking is great, as a clarity of mind exercise.
I'll post my thoughts, soon as I'm still trying to formulate some answers & ideas.
At this point FRANZONI is thinking, what kind of non-answer, answer was that?
Regards Dr. Bob |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2008 : 16:54:56
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| well it was my 1100th post..... so i thought i would get the analogue vs digital debate going as i still have a foot in both camps,but i meant what i said doc about the pod xt pro,i feel that this has something to offer and a lot of people are using them onstage with great sucess..i just want to see if possible it might be a good reverb compared to boss and other makes with the addition of having switchable effects loop at my disposal.... |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2008 : 14:11:49
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| ok ....i can see this isn't a hot topic on the forum,but i thought i would let you all know how things panned out in rehearsal......i used my pedalboard going into the line level input on the pod(in bypass mode) with just a bit of reverb from the pod..the dynacord was in the effects loop of the pod which i was able to turn on and off so keeping the dynacord out of the signal when not in use...... i found the sound didn't change dramatically ..i.e the CE-2 and the rest of my pedals seemed to work ok without any noticable thinning of the sound....the plus side was being able to use the CLS 22 speaker sim.....i got the thumbs up off my fellow bandmates as it really filled out the sound on some of the songs...a lot of stuff has been written about the evils of using a unit like a pod and converting your sound to digital,but going through a RV-5 or alesis/lexicon/roland COSM units are you not doing the same thing...??...any thoughts on this welcome...... |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2008 : 16:22:01
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I use a VanAmps Solemate http://vanamps.com/solemate.htm & even though it sounds great, its just a simple Accutronics 9 tank.
The TC Nova Reverb was pretty damned good.
I'd like to run strictly analogue gear through my chain & as I selectively remove pedals for simplicity & to preserve my tone, I really would like to see a list of Boss analogue compacts in one column with the digis in a second column. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 05/22/2008 16:22:55 |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2008 : 16:41:44
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oops, i was out of town late last week and missed this one.
my experiences with digital/analog mixing was this... and there was a time when i used rack heads/processors.
what i've found is this:
DA conversion generally significantly change the impedance of the signal and affect a lot of the subtle dynamics of picking, etc. they're getting better at it, but haven't mastered it. the day when processors no longer have a bypass mode (when it's more like clean vs. dirty) will probably signal that they have gotten closer in this regards. i always found i had to play with my amp twice as loud before i could get more of the natural output.
the result of this was that i tried to avoid using any kind of digital processing units (or pedals) between myself and the amp and limited their uses to the effects loop only. if you have better results than i did, go for it.
my last digital unit was a GSP21 legend, but i had also owned a few others.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2008 : 13:47:30
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| thanks for the replies.....i looked at stuff like the vanamps units also the 'mr springgy' pedal that is analogue reverb,then i read an review of jeff becks gigs in london a couple of months ago and he was using a lexicon reflex unit and some pedals with a Marshall JTM 45 head and cab,if it was the reissue it has a serial effects loop or maybe he had one installed into an original.?.and IMHO his tone is superb with no noticeable degradation..... anyway it got me to thinking about using the XTpro as a reverb unit and for linking the dynacord CLS 22 rotary unit through the pods switchable effects loop..i tried using it through the efects loop on a marshall combo in rehearsal and i agree with zentropa that it seemed to drop the volume of the amp....in the end i got the best results(and thumbs up off the rest of the band) going ... guitar(strat),into my pedalboard,out to the line level input of the pod, and unbalanced analog outs from the pod to the input of the marshall combo.... i've had valve amps go in the middle of gigs in the past so the thinking is,this will also let me go via the P.A. if i'm stuck,i can just set up a simple amp sim of a fender twin etc and use the balanced outs into the desk.....or i'm also thnking of getting something like the Art SLA 1 poweramp and it would mean i could go straight into the cab if i was stuck or even have the ption in the future of running a scaled down rig with stereo rotary sim and reverb....were getting fairly busy gigwise and are out two to three times some weekends lately so i can't afford to be without an amp and hauling the marshall around is enough,i used to drag a musicman combo as well to run in stereo but either/or is more than enough for most of our gigs unless it's outdoor and i've stopped using the CH-1 since i got the CE-2...... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 05/23/2008 13:56:58 |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2008 : 16:06:52
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well you might wanna use something that only has a wet digital signal but leaves the dry signal unharmed.
A/D converters digitize your audio and depending on the bit depth (which is the amplitude resolution (if a signal - and we're talking about wave form cycles here - is loud, quiet or something in between)) and the sampling rate (which determines how often the waveform is sampled - or rather its amplitude at this point in time is measured) these converters can significantly degrade your audio signal.
a 12 bit signal for example is cool if it just affects the delayed samples in a delay or reverb - but it won't be so cool if your whole signal gets 12 bit'ed |
Edited by - MullyFX on 05/23/2008 16:07:49 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 05:50:46
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hi mully
I'm not 100% up on all the tech details of this sort of stuff but you can change the bit rate between 16,20 and 24 bit and also the freq settings...??.like i said this is the part i get confused with...what is the idea behind this and what would be the best settings for this stuff....?? all i know is that i can get some great sounds out of it for recording and it's switchable effects loop is very handy,also the fact i can turn off all the amp and cab sims and just use it for effects if i want....when i originally got it i tried using it through my amp with all the amp and cab sims on and i didn't like it at all,i also tried D.I.ing it through the P.A. and that didnt really do it for me either....i suppose i should of got a power amp for it before and tried it out properly.... but you seem to have a handle on the bit rate thing....any suggestions.........??..........
zentropa........ funny you mention the GSP 21.... i had the first version until it got stolen on me,i still have the original foot controller......that was the reason i started getting some boss pedals as i didn't have much money at the time and you could pick them up secondhand in the small ad's fairly reasonable... |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 08:03:18
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Okay this time - with some pictures
low bit depth
higher bit depth
low sample rate
higher sample rate
in general: the higher those two are the better the representation of an analogue waveform. The better this representation the more realistic the sound (although some users of old AKAI samplers - and Japan made Reverb pedals claim - more realistic doesn't equal better)
there are advantages of using lower bit depth & sample rates but as a rule of thumb... if you don't know why you're doing it use the highest settings possible.
one reason why lowering them is to enable the Computer (or DSP chip) to run more instances or effects at the same time. The other is to decrease latency or to simply save CPU power.
cheers,
mully |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 08:14:42
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mully summed it up really well on what it is.
if i remember correctly... i worked in a recording studio in 1996 back when roland DM-80's and ADATs were the two standard studio recorders and the fastest computer on the market was like a pentium 166mhz... someone explained it to me, but i can't remember all the details...
correct me if i'm wrong on this...
mully explained the A/D conversion process. basically, the higher the bit depth and sampling rate, the more accurately the analog signal will be mapped by the signal processor.
however, there is a separate process of the D/A conversion.
it's summed up here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter
the reason that you wouldn't want to say, always use 24-bit when it's available is that most consumer level devices have cheap and economical D/A converters... and the only way they can keep up with limited processing power during the conversion process on higher bit depths is to trim out the "open space" in the signal translation (similar to MP3 compression) which often makes the analog output sound compressed, sterile, and artificial. reminds me of my friend's band that spent $10k recording their album and $200 having it mastered... heh... bad idea.
basically, the open space in your signal is what gives warmth, depth, etc. to the sound.
summary:
use 16-bit when playing live and experiment with higher bit depths when recording. |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 08:17:19
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i was in the process of typing that last reply before mully posted those pics.
as for my gsp21 legend... it was a sad day when i sold my pedals and spent $250 on a used legend with foot controllers. god, that set me back 2-3 years tone-wise. |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 08:31:15
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one more basic thing to add may be...
decreasing the bit depth results in distortion (to some this is pleasant - MPC users for example)
decreasing the sample rate results in less high end (frequency wise) |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 08:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by MullyFX
one more basic thing to add may be...
decreasing the bit depth results in distortion (to some this is pleasant - MPC users for example)
decreasing the sample rate results in less high end (frequency wise)
Hi Guys
Also don't forget to mention:
Freq Range, is half the sampling rate.
Thats the maximum frequency that you can record.
Regards Dr. Bob |
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MullyFX
Gold Member
Germany
753 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 08:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Bob
quote:
Originally posted by MullyFX
one more basic thing to add may be...
decreasing the bit depth results in distortion (to some this is pleasant - MPC users for example)
decreasing the sample rate results in less high end (frequency wise)
Hi Guys
Also don't forget to mention:
Freq Range, is half the sampling rate.
Thats the maximum frequency that you can record.
Regards Dr. Bob
the nyquist theorem?
now that's just showing-off  |
Edited by - MullyFX on 05/24/2008 09:01:56 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 13:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by zentropa
i was in the process of typing that last reply before mully posted those pics.
as for my gsp21 legend... it was a sad day when i sold my pedals and spent $250 on a used legend with foot controllers. god, that set me back 2-3 years tone-wise.
yep....with you 100% on the subject bro'........ the delays were if i remember not too bad as was the reverb and chorus but the rest was crap...i sold a dod pedalboard to buy this piece of junk...it was stolen back in 95 after a gig ...i didn't realize it at the time but it was a blessing in disguise.... ...i want to thank you all for taking the time out with the replies especially mully with the graphs..i'll let you know how i get on gigging this in the rig,but the pedalboard is staying as IMHO the FBV shortboard i got with the pod is ok but the wah/volume is crap,the stupid wah comes on even when your not using or near the volume pedal.... ..if anyone on the forum has the FBV 4 way switcher for the XTpro they want to trade/sell drop me a line.......................... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 05/24/2008 13:32:12 |
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Topic |
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Analogue pedals/units and daisy chaining with digi
