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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2009 : 15:28:16
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Hi all
We were playing at one of our regular gigs last night and the new owner has do some renovations since we were last there(he removed a large partition in the centre of the pub)plus our bass player asked if he could swap sides of the stage with me as an experiment....bad move.... ...i don't know if i've gotten used to hearing the Drums and bass in my left ear over the years but hearing them in my right ear with my amps in my left didn't do it for me...every thing seemed very boomy and muddy sounding...wasn't just me the other noticed it as well so at least i know i'm not going mad..... it was also very hard to do a soundcheck as he had stuff booming through he house PA.... ...and this used to be a gig where we had a great sound with litle problems..... possibly time to employ a soundman to work the desk offstage..... |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 15:56:43
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Hi franzoni
I know this isn't much of an answer, but after many years of study.
I have come to the conclusion that:
Room Acoustics.....
It's White mans magic - mixed with a sprinkling of Voodoo.
Just like our discussion, many months back, on Acoustic Fatigue.
When they moved the partition-wall they effectively made the room bigger & changed the resonance of the room.
Bigger is lower.
You will have to spend time with the EQ's to get it somewhere near to right again.
As well as deal with all the new reflections.
You may have to come up with a compromise.
Regards Dr. Bob 
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 16:07:41
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| The good news is that no matter how crappy the acoustics, when the room fills up with punters it sorts out the bass - human bodies are great dampers. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 16:51:42
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Both very good points.... i also think the ongoing singer/drummer 'discussion'... about the sound of the drums isn't helping...personally i don't think a kit needs to be miked up in a smallish room all it's doing is pushing up the stage volume and our drummer isn't really one for holding back with his technique or hasn't changed it since he got the mics last year....... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 06/13/2009 16:52:04 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 17:16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
personally i don't think a kit needs to be miked up in a smallish room all it's doing is pushing up the stage volume and our drummer isn't really one for holding back with his technique or hasn't changed it since he got the mics last year.......
Ohhh... that's not unusual. For small rooms the only thing I ever mic up is the kick, just to give it some sub push, and maybe the high hat if it isn't cutting. No need (at all) for the snare, toms or crash/ride cymbals in a small room. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 19:21:27
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| Laurie... i know you have done sound for bands.. were using a crossover splitting to a power amp for the bins and a powered desk (dynacord powermate) to drive the tops.... the crossover is pretty old,one of the types where you have to open it up and change the freq card ... i noticed the singers mic coming out of the bottoms...and we seem to be getting some dropouts on one of the tops...i would of thought the crossover would push the vocals throught the tops only...? have you ever come across a problem with crossovers not splitting the signal correctly...? |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 19:49:47
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Haven't ever had a crossover die.
Normally wouldn't expect to hear vocals through the bottoms. Depends on the cross-over value, but it would need to be maybe as high as 300-400Hz. Normally expect cross-over to be about 150Hz or lower. With big subs and high quality mid-highs a typical value is maybe 70 or 80Hz - there are definitely no vocals there (except for wind "pop" - which should be removed by an 80Hz filter int he desk).
It does sound like it might be a cross-over problem. If it crossed too high, you would get acres of mud.
Do you have 31 band graphics on the FOH mix? If someone has nudged the bass values for them it would do something similar.
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Edited by - Laurie on 06/13/2009 19:52:00 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 20:21:12
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| There is a couple of 7 band graphics for either side built into the desk for the mix..i think your on the right track with the freq on the crossover..i think our singer was experimenting with a couple of the spare freq cards..he might of put the wrong value/bandwidth for what we want into the crossover..so you reckon a card with 70/80 hz value for the crossover point...?..... |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 20:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
so you reckon a card with 70/80 hz value for the crossover point...?.....
Depends on several factors:
1) What are your sub speakers? Driver size and power rating? Brand and model number if possible?
2) What amp(s) are you driving them with? Mono or stereo?
3) What mid-highs are you using? Mid driver size and power rating? Brand and model number if possible?
4) You are driving the mid-highs with the inbuilt power amps in the desk - what power rating are they?
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Edited by - Laurie on 06/13/2009 20:32:36 |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 21:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
quote:
Originally posted by FRANZONI
so you reckon a card with 70/80 hz value for the crossover point...?.....
Depends on several factors:
1) What are your sub speakers? Driver size and power rating? Brand and model number if possible?
2) What amp(s) are you driving them with? Mono or stereo?
3) What mid-highs are you using? Mid driver size and power rating? Brand and model number if possible?
4) You are driving the mid-highs with the inbuilt power amps in the desk - what power rating are they?
1/ Subs are Peavey eliminators 18" being driven with a 1300 watt peavey power amp..not 100% on the speaker rating i think their rated at 500 watt each...
2/ stereo power amp
3/mids/highs are also eliminators with 15" EV's rated at 300 watts each with built in horns for the highs....
4/desk is a dynacord power mate1600 mk 1... 500 watt aside @ 4ohms.... tops are 8 ohm speakers AFAIK i can doublecheck and report back after tonights gig...... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 06/13/2009 21:21:34 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2009 : 23:02:57
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Righto... i cross my Eliminators at 80Hz. Anything up to about 120Hz will work but it gets muddier the higher you go. Try 80 or 100.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 05:36:11
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| Went to the gig and took a chance on the 80hz freq you had suggested previously(i had to go before i got your last post).........your da man L......was one of the best mixes we got in ages,the sound was crystal clear without being too loud,everyone really enjoyed the gig...IMHO there is nothing worse than the sound being off to ruin your buzz on a gig(apart from drunken punters pushing stuff on top of your gear...) .....thanks for all the help laurie..... |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 07:31:38
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| No worries! Glad it worked out! |
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Room Acoustics.....
