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Peter
Copper Member
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 11:05:48
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That's what I found on Audio Technoilogy Magazine Australia. Pretty
interesting - also watch the video.
http://www.audiotechnology.com.au/behringer.html
Peter
YOUR WORD
Readers' letters
BEHRINGER SOUL
Re: Gotta Have Soul? (Issue 52) - Firstly, I have to say, love the
magazine a lot. We subscribe at work (Darwin Entertainment Centre)
where I'm the FOH engineer. Just wanted to write in and make a quick
point about your Behringer article.
I agree: with you for the most part, bur I couldn't help but think of
the old blue 16-channel Behringer I have at home. I do live dubs here
in Darwin and I've been using the old Eurorack mixer I bought when
they first came out. It cost a lot more than they do these days and I
admit that this is a vital part of the argument. But, a Mackie of the
same vintage and some current Spirit mixers we have here at the centre
don't have the sound I need for what we do. I firmly believe this
cheap little mixer has 'soul'. In fact, I've grown to really love this
thing to the point where I've gone to the trouble of servicing it
regularly and doing a few little mods. If I lost it, I'd be mortified - if it means this much to me, then it must have character and soul.
Send onto Uli this information if you get time, maybe: he might revert
some of their current design ideas to days gone by (or stop cutting
the corners integral to the blue Eurorack sound)...
Justin Moon
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Re: Gotta Have Soul? (Issue 52) - Watched your video diary. Enjoyed
it. Had a question, though. You mentioned how Behringer had some
quality issues in the beginning. What you didn't mention, is
Behringer's rotten reputation for stealing proprietary information and
manufacturing clones of other's R&D. It has lost large lawsuits with
both Mackie and Aphex for outright stealing and copying. Many in the
pro audio community won't have anything to do with them for these
reasons. This is not private information but has been published many
times over the years.
I've heard that Mr. Behringer has just told the litigants to sue and
has made money despite losing these lawsuits. He just makes more than
he loses. I cannot support that kind of organisation with that
attitude.
David Dansky
Performance Sound Designer & Mixer.
Hollywood, CA
At the risk of seeming long-winded, explaining Behringer's side of
things requires me to go into some detail
1.) Legal Cases: The Aphex case is around 20 years old, so it's quite
understandable that the facts have become mixed with fiction. Back
then I had a little garage company and believed Aphex's patent was
invalid due to prior art and advise from a lawyer. At that time there
were several companies who produced those exciters, such Akai, SPL,
D&R, etc. Hence I did not stop production and rather filed for
invalidation, which triggered a court case that tasted several years.
Later, I also filed for my own patent application for circuitry that
made the harmonics processor level-independent (patent DE3904425), an
invention that was sponsored by the reputable Fraunhofer Institute,
which invented MP3. To cut a long story short, the court decided that
Aphex's patent was valid and unfortunately my own patent would also
infringe. I simply lost the case and paid for damages. Concurrent with
our case were allegations that the Aphex patent 'inventor' Kurt
Knoppel had stolen the patent from someone whom he worked for as a
treasurer. But I even heard that Aphex themselves were sued by Harvey
Rubens who claimed his VCA patent was infringed. Just Google 'Aphex
Harvey Rubens' for more details. Concerning Mackie, all I can tell you
is that it was a dispute over trade dress and IP. Behringer definitely
did not lose any case against Mackie, as can be confirmed from the
public record. However, our settlement agreement does not allow any
party to disclose details. After Aphex we never lost an IP case again,
a far cry from David's allegations.
2.) How Behringer designs products: Our R&D department, which I head,
is one of the largest in the MI/Pro Audio industry. With over 200
engineers operating in Germany, USA, Philippines and China, Behringer
R&D includes some of the finest DSP, analogue and digital system,
speaker, instrument amplification, mechanical, PCB, process and
quality engineers anywhere - truly a dedicated and sophisticated team
that I am really proud of. Our technology portfolio contains around 20
patents with many more applied for. We constantly release
revolutionary products such as the digital EQ DEQ2496, the modeling
amp V-AMP or the digital mixer DDX32l6, which took over five years to
develop. We spend more money on R&D than in any other Behringer
department... because R&D is truly the heart and soul of our
engineering-driven company. How else would we be able to release up to
200 new products per year? When you look at our product range, you
will find many product categories, such as mixers, processors,
speakers, etc. that are common with our competitors. While our look
might be similar to other's products, what's 'under the hood' is quite
different. For example, to design mixers is not rocket science since
analogue designs are relatively generic. But what makes the difference
in a Behringer mixer is the choice of components and the fact that we
make so many of these components ourselves; from prosaic parts like
switches to our outstanding V888 transistor used in our mic pre's.
Lower costs are merely a side benefit of vertical integration and high-
volume production. Because we produce millions of products a year,
quality must be Behringer's main focus. Designing and building
everything we can ourselves - right down to the pulp in our speaker
cones - is the best way to ensure quality and cost control. Do we look
at successful products in the market and then follow? Yes, of course,
as do our competitors. But it makes no commercial sense to release a
product with identical performance, features and price. Powered by
over 200 R&D engineers, the Behringer approach is to offer better
audio performance, feature set, plus design each product to be
produced at lower cost.
3.) Intellectual Property. It's important to understand that IP
(Intellectual Property) legal cases are very common in any industry.
Just look at recent cases with Gibson versus PRS, Microsoft,
Blackberry, etc. These guerilla tactics are especially common in the
US where legal fees are sky high and each party has to pay its own
legal fees regardless of the outcome of the case. Plus, IP is a grey
area, as it deals with patents, trade dress, copyrights, designs etc.
where not much is black and white. This, along with the fact that IP
litigation is often used as a tool to push a competitor out of
business, are reasons why there are so many cases in this area of law.
There is a common misunderstanding about copying and reverse
engineering. While 1:1 copies are clearly illegal, reverse engineering
is an ethical and legitimate way to design, one that is used by major
corporations every day. Remember that technology is generally public
domain (unless protected by patents or copyrights). This is the basis
for any industry to evolve, and you'll surely find the latest BMW on
Mercedes' workbench and vice versa. We definitely look at our
competitors' models - just as they learn from us. In fact, when you
walk around tradeshows, Behringer is among the most imitated
manufacturers. Where legal, we have no prob1em with this. Neither
should our competitors. The following article gives you some valuable
background information:
http://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/~pam/papers/l&e%20reveng3.pdf
4.) Why are our products so affordable? We have tools that allow us to
efficiently design massive libraries of everything from analogue and
digital circuitry designs to DSP algorithms. This provides us with
economies of scale in our product designs, and reduces time-to-marker
tremendously as well as cost. We strive to use the same components in
as many designs as possible, cutting inventory, carrying costs and
providing more buying power. It has always Behringer's philosophy to
pass on those benefits to our customers and offer high-quality
products for musicians that don't have deep pockets. This has
undoubtedly made enemies among competitors who do not have the same
commitment to vertical integration, economy of scale or dedication to their customers.
Uli Behringer
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ronster
Gold Member
Australia
645 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 16:07:40
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Interesting video. Nice link!  |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 23:16:18
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Watched the video,i agree with ronster great link..it was interesting to see inside the chinese manufacturing industry as more and more musicial equipment is coming from there... the question of 'soul'with pieces of equipment is tricky,i know i have some old equipment i would never part with as i think it has'mojo'(my '67 fender coronado guitar springs to mind)i also have three old valve amps that all have their own thing going on..and i've read reviews of some boss gear being called 'cold' and 'sterile' sounding...but i really believe that its what you put in as a musician will determine what comes out...one of the best guitar amp sounds i ever got on a recording was with a jap squier strat and a pod xt pro on a fender amp setting....i read a review with joe bonemassa and he still uses the dd3 in his set up and he said what he liked about it was it put out exactly what you put into it and didn't colour your sound.... so i suppose that the musician's 'soul' was coming out in that instance and not the equipments.... |
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Peter
Copper Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 01:44:57
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Totally agreed Franzoni - you hit the nail. The people who put sould into the gear are the designers of the quipment and the musicans who turn a piece of wood and metal into music.
The people at the factory have to make sure that there is consistency and quality in whatever they produce. That has nothing to do with "soul" but with dedication to their job. I liked the way the stuff at Behringer is produced. The factory is very organized, clean and the people seem to be treated properly. And remember Boss gear is produced in Taiwan and China, too.
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mattoqua
Silver Member
Canada
438 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 02:53:49
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Great video
Im really starting to come around to behringer. At first, I wasnt too sure about what they were doing, but now I like the idea a lot. Im thinking of buying a couple and making a seperate chain for another guitar out of them.
It would be interesting to get my exact same board (all boss), but from behringer, and see how it is in relation to it. It would be too much though, so I'll wait a while for the prices to drop even further before I start committing |
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Dirk
Platinum Member
Netherlands
1309 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 10:30:05
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Here in Holland, the Behringer pedal prices have just gone up a few euros.
I have a Behringer tremolo pedal, which sounds really cool, I wouldn't use the toy'ish pedal live but for home use it'll suffice.
It's not that their quality is so crappy, it's just that all other companies are way too expensive, our beloved Boss products included.
Hey, let's start a Behringerarea.com website...
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Edited by - Dirk on 06/24/2007 10:31:27 |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 18:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dirk
Here in Holland, the Behringer pedal prices have just gone up a few euros.
I have a Behringer tremolo pedal, which sounds really cool, I wouldn't use the toy'ish pedal live but for home use it'll suffice.
It's not that their quality is so crappy, it's just that all other companies are way too expensive, our beloved Boss products included.
Hey, let's start a Behringerarea.com website...
Hi Dirk
I have 4 of their pedals, that were part of a big dead pedals box, off Evilbay
How many do you or other members have?
Mine all work now.
But as much as might use them, now & again & they seem to work Ok, I believe, that long term, they will be a service nightmare, & need lots of support.
I can't see myself spending 3 hours on a Behringer xxyy pedal or trying to chase down the skeleton pots that they use in their Boss graphic EQ copy.
On the same note, their EQ is way less noisy that the GE-7.
it uses TL064's?
It might be worth rehousing some of the better pedals?
I also read here, that they manufacture their own transistors to their own spec.
But what makes the difference
in a Behringer mixer is the choice of components and the fact that we
make so many of these components ourselves; from prosaic parts like
switches to our outstanding V888 transistor used in our mic pre's.
I think they might become a toss it pedal, is it fails in some serious sort of way.
I have used the Behringer cases for some of my own projects, nice cheap case, & it actually looks like a Pro pedal.
People whine about the way you go about changing the battery,
it's the same in a Digitech Bad Monkey, I don't hear people bitching about the Digitech's.
I guess, I am both defending, & Knocking the Behringer pedals at the same time, but they are what they are,
pedals!
Most work ok, & are a great introduction, into the fantastic world of sound sculpting for the guys & girls starting out, or on a budget.
I have repaired a few so far, well all four that I have, but they were all stupid type faults, nothing like a fried protection diodes, or regulators, or OpAmps.
To date, I can't imagine we will see schematics for any of the pedals.
I recently tried to service a 16 channel mixer from them, it was well built, but a nightmare to pull the power amps apart, I think they were running in some Class H or Digital mode, & almost all SMD as well.
And in a final note, most of the pedals use SMD surface mount IC's & components, but I pulled a UM100 or UD100 apart, & it seemed to be built with normal discrete parts, and a lot of FETS.
Regards Dr. Bob 
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Edited by - Dr. Bob on 06/24/2007 18:19:26 |
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ronster
Gold Member
Australia
645 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 15:50:10
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I've had an ultra metal, chorus and acoustic model Behringer pedals. They weren't bad but I not really what I wanted so I sold them cheap to a friend who was staring out with guitar effects.
Good for the price and a great way to get a particular effect on the cheap to see if you like the idea before committing more $$$ on better gear. |
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