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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2008 : 07:54:32
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Monster headache  |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 09:29:25
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Good morning campers...!
I saw this thread and tried to not wade in, but I can't not throw in my 25c worth.
At audio frequencies (guitars and effects and stuff really don't put out anything over 20kHz and if they did your amp/speakers wouldn't reproduce it)... "cables is cables".
As long as the cable meets certain basic requirements (e.g. the sheild is truly a Faraday sheild, the insulation between the centre conductor and the sheild isn't paper thin, and the physical durability is good), then the actual LCR (inductance, capacitance, and resistance) of the cable isn't really going to have an effect - at audio frequencies.
The *connector* on the other hand, can make a world of difference. If the cable has a crappy connector, the connection resistance can be enough to rob volume and tone. I'd suggest spending your money on good connectors - I've found after 20 years experimentation that Neutrik are very good.
A usual criticism of cable critics (looking in a mirror here) is that we don't have ears sophisticated enough to tell the difference. Beats me - "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like".
Anyway, stepping down from the soap-box, my suggestion when asked has always been to buy good cable in bulk and Neutrik connectors and make your own cables... and before using them, give the connectors a good wipe with contact cleaner (I use "super contact cleaner" from MG Chemicals). Works for me.
Regards,
Laurie. |
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 14:56:40
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i agree a lot with what lauries2 said..i know people swear by top end cables but unless your eric johnson who has the ears of a bat and is supposed to be able to tell what brand of battery is in a certain pedal just by the sound coming out of it.. i think once you use a reasonable good quality cable you should be ok, i know kevin o'connor from london power when he was asked about the supposed audio benefits of certain capacitors over others called it a lot of 'audiophile hooey' and i think this applies to guitar leads as well especially in a live performance where a little noise and hum won't make much difference....and this is bit thats alway cracks me up..people go on about the legendary tones of the likes of hendrix,SRV,clapton etc who were using sometimes those 'curly' leads that are supposed to be bad for robbing tone...and then these people go out and spend vast amounts of money on gear too try to recreate the tones of their heroes and forget about the thing that connects it all together,going with a high quality cable will probably defeat the purpose.. some of these jokers are also the ones who look down their noses at boss pedals because they aren't 'true bypass'.... .i remember reading an interview with pete cornish and he had to fix a lead for joe pass on a gig in ronnie scotts one time ..joe had just wrapped the bare wires around the connections on the jack without any solder and got on with the more important thing of performing,and i think it was ceaser diaz who said the SRV said the high quality leads 'carried too much electricity' and made his tone too bright sounding.....i use planet waves 'cause i normally get a few years out of them in fact i have 4 of them at the moment in various lengths 10'15 and 20 ft and i've just ordered another of their pedalboard kits to get rid of the last of the el cheapo patch cables.... i'm not trying to say buy the nasty cheap stuff but i would find it hard to justify paying 200/300 dollars for a couple of leads....... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 02/25/2008 15:16:50 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 17:46:47
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I meant to mention cost in my previous post... I buy the Neutrik connectors in bulk (a box of 100) and the cable in bulk, so a 10 foot cable costs me about $15 to make. A pedal patch cable would be about $5.
Regards,
Laurie. |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 21:47:20
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It depends how the shield is actually wired. Most cables have the shield wired to the sleeve at both ends. I have read however that for proper shielding it must not be soldered at the destination end. Maybe this only applies to shielding within an effects or project box. But...
All of my Monster cables have an arrow & label indicating signal flow. I've not cut into a Monster cable but perhaps it has 3 conductors inside with a dedicated shield that is grounded only at one end. If so, this is the very best way to shield a length of cable. I'm off the Monster's site to investigate this hypothesis that they might possibly sport more than 2 conductors within.
Btw lauries2, even with your few posts.. you're jumping right into great contributions here on Bossarea. I commend you & your knowledge. Take a $20 outta petty cash  |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 22:20:56
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Ok, this is what I found on Monster's FAQ:
Will I notice a difference if I hook up my cables in the wrong direction?
You probably will not, but if you think that you are experiencing noise problems, check that they are. Cables are directional for shielding purposes only. Should you not see these arrows, remember that the signal flow should go in the same direction of the print on the cable jacket, reading left to right away from the source (source to destination).
Why do the cables have directional arrows?
This is done for shielding purposes only, a design where we do not solder the shield on the signal�s destination. This ensures that any noise picked up by the shield will not be transmitted into your signal path.
It seems as though my suspicions were correct. I'm concerned however that lesser cables simply have the shield wired on both ends which doesn't offer the same noise rejection as a proper shielding configuration. I know this to be true with LiveWire as I've reterminated a few of their cables.
Monster's lifetime warranty & shielding justifies my sizable investment in their cables & I'm stickin' to it. Especially since I've got a bedroom studio with signal & power cables running EVERYWHERE & I can't conceivably separate them very easily. |
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Mr Arkadin
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 22:31:50
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Don't get me started on cables with signal flow arrows. BS.
"Cables & Directionality
Sanders' cables and interconnects do not have any "signal flow" arrows on them. This is because wire is not directional. It has no magnetic polarity and has no rectifier properties like diodes. It behaves the same regardless of current flow direction. It has identical resistance, resistance, capacitance, and inductance regardless of the direction of current flow. If you doubt this, then I encourage you to actually measure wire and see for yourself.
Even if wire did have some sort of directional quality to it, it wouldn't matter in an audio cable because the audio signal is AC (alternating current), not DC (direct current). This means that the current reverses direction at the frequency defined by the music -- it does not "flow" from your source components to your speakers.
So even if you could find wire that actually did flow current better in one direction than the other, its orientation would always be wrong half the time and right half the time, no matter which way you connected it because the signal is constantly changing directions. So orientation wouldn't matter. Cable manufacturers who claim otherwise are operating outside the realm of science."
Personally i use Whirlwind or Planet Waves cables or some home made ones with Neutrik connectors.
'Proper' shielding is connecting at both ends, otherwise you might as well just have one wire! With no connection the shield cable is doing nothing. Connection at both ends can mean susceptibility to ground loops, but no shield means RF is your enemy. A halfway-house is to put a capacitor between one end of the shield and the casing, which acts as a sort of ground lift but keeps the earth integrity intact.
Do not believe the marketing bs on cables - the mark-up is staggering. |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 00:50:02
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You missed the point BS. I'm NOT stating that wire has directionality at all. Unfortunately, almost your entire post tries to refute the claim that I implied that it did. You misunderstand what the industry means regarding directional flow.
The "proper shielding" to which you refer is common with 2-conductor wire where the 2nd conductor is actually used for the shield itself & is soldered to connectors on both ends.. as opposed to a 3-conductor where the outer shield is only grounded on the "instrument" end (since you don't like the word "source") & encases the 2 conductors inside basically what acts like a Faraday cage of sorts.
I'm not stating that Monster does it that way. I'd have to cut an end off to verify but from an electrical standpoint it makes sense. Its much like having conduit surround the conductors inside which "shields" them from interference from outside magnetic fields & such.
Admittedly, I don't understand why the shield is only to be connected on the "instrument" side & wouldn't think orientation should matter. But the industry states in multiconductor cables the shield should be grounded only at the source end, & will not carry circuit current. I do agree that in a standard 2-conductor cable, if you disconnect the shield at one end you effectively cut a potential ground loop between the two connected devices.
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Edited by - DeFrag on 02/26/2008 01:35:11 |
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jack
Platinum Member
USA
1418 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 01:26:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Arkadin
quote:
Originally posted by jack
[quote]but I was just wondering what else they may do that you don't agree with...
It's all the lawsuits against anyone using the word 'monster' - i mean it's a fucking word, sorry guys you can't copyright it, yet they continue. i know for a fact that a certain Minimoog software emulation's name was changed slightly to avoid any possible litigation. Ridiculous.
Mind you, in audiophile circles you can buy a metre of hi-fi cable for $10,000 or more if you really want, i'm sure it'll sound so much better
From wiki:
"Trademark
Monster Cable is aggressively protecting its name and trademark by filing numerous lawsuits and trademark infringement claims against dozens of companies for using the word "monster" in names, products or services.[5] Monster Cable CEO Noel Lee defended these actions by saying "We have an obligation to protect our trademark; otherwise we'd lose it" [1]. Some of the items they are suing about are:
Monster Garage
Monster House
Monster Energy Drink
MonsterHTPC
Snow Monsters (a kid's skiing group)
MonsterVintage, small used clothing store
Monsters, Inc., an animated feature film
Monsters of the Midway, a nickname of the Chicago Bears football team
Fenway Park's Monster seats
Monster.com employment website"
I guess its too late for them to sue the writer of Monster Mash and I guess their lawsuit against Halloween for using monsters is still pending....What a bunch or Monster  holes... |
Edited by - jack on 02/26/2008 01:27:22 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 02:14:56
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G'day Defrag! Thanks for the kind feedback! Not sure about the $20 though... I aint that cheap, but I can be had 
The sheild connected at one end is an old trick. And easy to do for guitar leads - simply buy audio cable meant for XLR connectors (two conductors and a sheild). Connect the "black" conductor and the sheild to the sleeve of the 1/4 inch connector (with the "red" conductor to the tip) at ONE END ONLY. On the other end, connect the "black" conductor only to the sleeve of the 1/4 inch jack (and the red to the tip) - leave the sheild unconnected. And you have just made yourself a "properly sheilded" cable for maybe 20%-50% of the price of store bought.
Mark the end of the cable with the sheild connected to the sleeve of the 1/4 jack, and ensure that end is plugged into whatever equipment has the best grounding.
Now there is a trick to this whole thing. This approach ONLY works if ONE of the ends has a solid ground (that's the end you plug the "marked" end of your cable into). An amp with a ground pin in the mains plug is one such beast. A pedal with a battery or even a PSA adapter is NOT. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say if you chain pedals together using cable wired like this, it will give worse hum than the traditional single core patch cables. Post your results if anyone tries it...
On the other hand, if you are wiring pieces of gear up where there is a solid ground on one end, it's the way to go. In a straight connection from guitar to amp, that would be the amp end.
If you are wiring two pieces of gear together and both have solid grounding, chuck this approach entirely and use balanced connections (XLR/TRS) assuming the gear has it. Once you use a balanced connection this whole discussion is moot as the balanced connection removes any common mode noise (e.g. hum) inherently.
Laurie.
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Edited by - Laurie on 02/26/2008 05:34:49 |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 04:26:24
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Thank god someone knows what I'm talking about.
You've made a couple good points & laid it out succinctly lauries2 |
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Mr Arkadin
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 12:38:36
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OK, i missed your point - i was thinking more in Hi-Fi terms of two core wire and the funky little arrows they put on there. If everything were only balanced we wouldn't need this discussion .
However lauries2's point notes that if you use your Monster* cables going into Boss pedals means that your sound may actually be worse. Or did i misunderstand again?
Mr A
*Monster is a trademark of Monster Cables Inc and is used only for purposes of illustration. Other overpriced cables can be found at any good music store. |
Edited by - Mr Arkadin on 02/26/2008 19:56:20 |
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DeFrag
Moderator
USA
3409 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:53:35
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No worries man  I try like hell to keep it all balanced but some things just can't afford that advantage. Its like in my studio.. I have a couple 192kHz devices but downstream there are a couple that supports only 96kHz. bleh Er.. which means I agree with you that if everything was balanced we wouldn't need this little side discussion.
Anyway, I can see where Monster's business practices have put you off their products. I admit they are among the most expensive, consumer level cables available & frankly, I'm rather tired of buying them if only for the price. Conversely though, I haven't had any problems with them & they beat the hell out of what I had before them. They are indeed good cables with a great warranty.
I've heard of problems with George L's coming apart during shows. Fulltone cables have had their share of bad press, I didn't like the plastic sleeve in certain Mogami cables. Its almost like comparing Ford to Chevy, to Dodge. They all have their issues but overall.. they're are good enough & it beats walkin'! At least this ain't the 70s when the Big 3 produced nothing but crap thereby inducing the passage of lemon laws.
At least I haven't fallen into the marketing ploy to shell out for Transparent Cable's OPUS MM. Sure we're talking speaker cables here but at $23,500 for an 8' pair, clearly the most expensive cable ever produced. I'll be happy enough with name-brand, consumer level quality that ISN'T the cheapest cable hanging on the wall that a guitar dealer might throw into the deal when you buy a new guitar. |
Edited by - DeFrag on 02/26/2008 18:01:34 |
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 17:21:06
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G'day Mr Arkadin!
I'm not making any comments on store-bought cables... because I don't know how they are wired up inside.
Just making the point that if you use the method I described to hook up between pedals, things might be worse than using "standard" cables.
I'm still an advocate of making your own cables using good quality components and saving a bundle over ANYTHING store-bought.
Regards,
Laurie.
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Laurie
Double Platinum Member
Canada
4854 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 17:26:54
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WOW!!
Just saw DeFrag's $23,500 speaker cable comment...
Now this is a topic that I RANT about. If you want the best speaker cable money can buy, go buy some 200 Amp welding cable. Run two strands of that to the speaker and sit back with a beer listening to the speakers satisfied you can't do any better.
But, this is for another thread
Laurie
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Monster Cables
