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visserman
Platinum Member
1072 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2008 : 16:08:18
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Simple question, but underrated one, and one which will send you back to your pedalboard and make you scratch your head.
Confirmed about this by Zentropa's topic about delay and compression, it seems that more people stuggle with this issue.
Okay so what is the point then?
Well how about switching from one good clean sound to a dirty agressive sound --in a BAND situation-- in a flick of a switch without chaning ampsettings and other pedals?
I cannot do this, because whatever I do it seems to be a compromise, and the distortionsound often looses out on this, because I do not play songs which depend on this sound all the time. I am happy to play a certain part in song with a distortion sound which will do but is not great on its own.
Okay the issue is deeper, as some of you will recognise, because some dist. sounds work fine as parts, because of the mix, the dynamics. so really not an issue, but to use those sounds on their own for a whole song may not be that pleasing.
Because I tend to play clean, I may have less of an issue with this--hey get good basic tone and ride with it---, but the matter would be different if you are a guy playing in a heavy rock band. What you often see then is that people use chorus [or some kind of mod. effect] to indicate the change in sound.But does this mod. effect really make your clean sound that good or is it just a simple cop-out for getting another soundvariety?.
Thinking of Slash as a well-known example. Good clean sound? Okay it may be the kind of music he usually plays.
U2 may be better example of people who do get it right. Some right dirty sounds there, but also nice clean sounds. Okay we know how he does it eh? Tons of amps/effects ect. but for most of us here, this is an unrealistc set-up if you have to carry your own gear and have limited space on stage.
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 17:35:37
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Great topic..... ....i too mostly play clean with the effects for some 'colour' to widen the sound(we have no keyboards) the distorted sounds don't really bother me too much,i find my twin tube overdrive with it's bass and treble controls and 2 channels enough to cover every need....i used to want a seperate distortion pedal to get that real 'heavy' sound but when i sat down to think about it,i wouldn't use it that much anyway and to be honest the twin tube sounds more like a real distorting amp to me,more natural...some of the things i have found is the simpler the amp the better sounding it is and.... type of speakers used,open vs closed back cabs,valve vs tranny amps,type of power output tubes...i.e. EL34 vs 6L6/EL84...etc all have a lot to do with the basic sound at the end..basically what i do at the end of the day is to get a good basic clean sound from the amp then add the effects and tweak the overdrive to suit .... clean to me is more important an a lot of what i have to do is rhythm work with mostly solos in the middle of songs..and as we don't do Metallica covers....... i think i have most bases covered..... |
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visserman
Platinum Member
1072 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 20:20:40
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Another issue: Get a great distortion-sound for your chords, but usually this sound is not that good for your solos.
So again, a compromise.
As long as you are playing great songs with some people around you you can enjoy being with life is not that bad!!
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 08:48:53
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i've always found i sounded best when playing live... as that was the only time no one could yap at me for being too loud. there's something gratifying about a les paul into a marshall with all knobs set to max (except reverb).
i differ on the clean vs. dirty thing though...
i've found you can fake a passable/adequate clean... but it's impossible to fake the sound of a high gain tube amp cranked to the gills.
after a couple of brief stints with ABing amps i basically ditched the clean amp and pretty much only play through channel switching dirty amps so i can have something that is "clean enough" but still have the rock factor i want. i figure that's why god invented neck pickups.
quote:
Get a great distortion-sound for your chords, but usually this sound is not that good for your solos.
So again, a compromise.
see last sentence of above paragraph :)
i occasionally will step on a chorus to add some depth but usually i don't want anything to eat any amount of tone between myself and the amp.
quote:
But does this mod. effect really make your clean sound that good or is it just a simple cop-out for getting another soundvariety?.
51% of live sound is being heard (being able to cut). the 49% is sounding good.
i've found this works two ways with mod effects. sometimes it sounds cool. if you are in a van halen cover band you will likely be using lots of flange and lots of phase. if you are in a spacy sounding experimental band, chances are effects are a large part of your sound.
in general, chorus fills things out nicely and adds texture. whether that's a tonal improvement or not is rig dependent. if you have a super harsh solid state amp and ultra bright pickups, it probably sounds better with chorus. if you have a money amp chorus usually just gives definition and doesn't necessarily "improve" the tone.
unless you have a massive set of sound reinforcement chances are the NEED for effects falls into the being heard category.
overall though, i would say it's a song by song basis where i value clean or dirty primarily. if i was gigging again i'd probably have a separate guitar for each type of song. if i didn't feel like doing that i'd probably be rolling back on volume, switching pickups, etc.
one of the more liberating experiences you can work with is a single channel dirty amp. you stop worrying about a lot of that stuff and can worry bout rockin more :)
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FRANZONI
Double Platinum Member
Ireland
3543 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 09:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by visserman
Another issue: Get a great distortion-sound for your chords, but usually this sound is not that good for your solos.
So again, a compromise.
As long as you are playing great songs with some people around you you can enjoy being with life is not that bad!!
thats it.. i like having a good sound but it's more important to get on with the music and enjoy the gig,if your enjoying it it reflects in the music and the audience see this and and usually end up joining in.....especially if your having a few on these.....while you play...not on every gig but there is a couple of regular gigs now where we can let our hair down..... ....i 'm not 100% with zentropa on using mod and delay effects, i don't see it as a 'cop out'...i use them not as a tonal improvment because of a bad sounding amp etc....but to create a vibe(remember we mainly do covers even if we do them with our own twist) or in some of cases to recreate a specific part of a classic song,on our own stuff i mainly use only a little tremolo and delay/verb with either compression or overdrive for the lead bits....although i havn't recorded anything since i got my CE-2....i could say that what i see of some of the younger players coming up behind me seem to be unable or struggle to play anything clean and need dist/drive/fuzz to cover up a lot of stuff they do...... |
Edited by - FRANZONI on 07/29/2008 09:56:18 |
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Dr. Bob
Moderator
Australia
6593 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 11:14:09
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quote:
Franzoni
i could say that what i see of some of the younger players coming up behind me seem to be unable or struggle to play anything clean and need dist/drive/fuzz to cover up a lot of stuff they do...
I guess to sum it up Franzoni, that would make them:
Distorted, Over-driven Fuzzy youth....
I know, I know.......
It's been a long day-week..
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 16:19:17
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quote:
i 'm not 100% with zentropa on using mod and delay effects, i don't see it as a 'cop out'...i use them not as a tonal improvment because of a bad sounding amp etc....but to create a vibe(remember we mainly do covers even if we do them with our own twist) or in some of cases to recreate a specific part of a classic song,on our own stuff i mainly use only a little tremolo and delay/verb with either compression or overdrive for the lead bits....
i actually never said they were a cop out.
i believe that there's times where effects are a need, and times when effects are a choice.
need = i want an accurate cover, i want to fill out my sound, etc.
choice = i want to paint a particular sonic landscape, i like this effect, etc.
the primary idea behind a solo boost is rooted in need. something to set the tone apart from everything else. texture can often be as much of a factor in this as raw volume and/or frequencies.
i've usually had enough different instruments to always be able to provide a balancing texture to whatever others guitarists i've played with have had. in the case where you got 2 guys with les pauls through marshalls cranked to 11, the need base for effects become more important.
quote:
i could say that what i see of some of the younger players coming up behind me seem to be unable or struggle to play anything clean and need dist/drive/fuzz to cover up a lot of stuff they do.
people have been saying this for a long time hehe. partially true, but partially rooted in the chugga chugga 7-string crap that many of them play as well. that stuff is unbearable for me when distorted, but even more unbearable clean hehe. when i started out all the kids used distortion because when you play a nirvana cover that has the same chord progression for the verse and chorus you needed distortion over 1 of them :) |
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redundant
Silver Member
Turkey
247 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 10:06:39
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A few things...
1. Never having had a lot of gear to work with, I basically have adopted a "good enough" approach when playing live. Thus, if you don't have great expectations about what you want to sound like, you don't feel like you are compromising much.
2. Interesting to see that others are using their chorus pedals as a drive/boost pedal. Recently started doing the same & plan to continue.
3. When first seeing the topic, my first thought was live sound as a compromise as compared to what can be done while recording at home/ in a studio. I record at home, & have more to work with than I do live. At the same time, switching clean to dirty is clearly less of a problem if you record separate tracks.
4. My compromise involves what to play when trying to perform an original song live. My problem is that I typically write songs with two guitar parts, but I'm the only guitarist in the band, and, as you would guess, something inevitably sounds weaker than what I want. In some cases, I've had to abandon playing the song live because it just can't measure up to what I've recorded (which I guess is more surrender than compromise). |
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visserman
Platinum Member
1072 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 19:28:47
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redundant,
Your compromise could lead to a creative solution.
When playing covers I use the feel of the drums in my chords, use bits on the bass and the overal guitarsound, just to reflect what is going on in the song. Does not always work but often it does, and makes playing much more fun instead of just copying guitarparts of the song.
Zen, I know a lot of people feel that playing life is about being heard but in a way I feel there is something wrong with that mentalitly. Heh, not saying this is your approach.
In cases like that there is something not right with the arrangment of the song, people playing in the same registre, doulbling up on chords etc.
With my own songs I hardly have this problem, because all bandmembers will play very distintive parts which make up the whole bandsound. On their own these parts do not make much sense, but put them in bandcontext and they start to tell a story.
Another thing: I leave the low E and A, and even D for the bass, guitars can cover the rest of the strings. This approach creates more space for the bass and bassdrum.
Yep playing in a Metallica coversband will not help you much with that approach, but who wants to play bass in a Metallica covers band anyway?! |
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 20:30:16
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quote:
Zen, I know a lot of people feel that playing life is about being heard but in a way I feel there is something wrong with that mentalitly. Heh, not saying this is your approach.
i'm not saying that the #1 thing should be the ability to cut in a mix.
i am saying that the ability to cut in a mix should be a pre-requisite for live sound.
if you can't be heard you may as well not even be playing at all, or it at least equalizes playing a les paul through a marshall or a $20 strat copy through a 30 watt crate.
smart bandmates will compromise slightly in order to fit everyone into the sonic palette and avoid frequency saturation. unfortunately i've run across more primadonnas than smart bandmates :P
my goal has usually been for "the best sound that can be heard" but oddly enough, that's usually been my favorite sound in general, just with the volume cranked 4 notches higher.
one guitarist i played with had a PRS custom 24 and was playing with a hughes & kettner stack. he was constantly having trouble cutting. during a show i walked over to his amp when he was complaining between songs and turned his midrange knob from 0 to 10. cut problem solved. he wasn't happy with this solution and before our next show told us that we should turn down my guitar and the bass and have the drummer hit softer instead of having him use more midrange. there never was a next show.
he was in love with his mid-scooped sound which i felt turned his $2500 guitar and $2000 amp into a $300 guitar and a mesa mark IV with the EQ shaped like a V.
still, with a good amp, i never feel there's really any compromise on sound quality when playing live and cutting. btw, "good amp" doesn't have a price tag on it, although it usually runs at least $250 to snag something that would work that way but it doesn't have to be much more expensive than that. |
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jack
Platinum Member
USA
1418 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 22:05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by visserman
Another issue: Get a great distortion-sound for your chords, but usually this sound is not that good for your solos.
So again, a compromise.
As long as you are playing great songs with some people around you you can enjoy being with life is not that bad!!
No compromises in my 'live' (or playng outside the house) sound. The Keeley modded MT-2 I use covers both the rhythm and lead work adequately, and is one of the many reasons why I like that pedal so much, but I am always heard whether its rhythm or lead. |
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visserman
Platinum Member
1072 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 17:24:57
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Zen,
I think many people will have similar stories to tell as what you mentioned about the guy where you put his midrange up.
I agree that it is not easy to find smart bandmates, it is not easy to find good and allround musicians full-stop and if you meet some you are reminded again why you made that choise to play music.
When I meet new people I usually will talk about the approach of playing together, the sound and songs, volumematters ect. Once people know and feel comfortable with things you can sail through a lot of stuff and still have fun at the same time.
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zentropa
Gold Member
USA
837 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 22:51:32
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i honestly haven't had a good time jamming with another person in about 7 years.
rarely meet anyone under the age of 40 that understands tone to save their life (even if they had all the money in the world to spend on gear they always seemed to buy shit).
honestly if i got into playing again i probably would only do something really out there in the instrumental math rock genre. it's always interesting and cerebral and you're guaranteed to only have like 7 fans, but all 7 fans will love you enough that they would step in front of a bullet for you. |
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How Much of Your Live Sound is a Compromise??
